Ep 14 | Rondell Williams Transcript

Ep 14 | Rondell Williams 

Transcript

Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listen to discretion is advised. I got a story to tell because it don't work. Yeah. Did you think to yourself, oh boy, I'm in trouble now? Of course I did, but I also, I don't say anything. It'll all blow over. Then it goes off again and he falls down. So it was blood anyway, all in the house anyway, this guy stretched out on the backyard, on the pavement, and bleeding. Flashbacks, will get you. These big mistakes you make as a young man, ain't no mercy.

You are now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You'll see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.

They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They're currently serving time for their murders. And they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter now. Here are the voices of those who have killed.

On this episode of Voices of a Killer, we interview Rondell Williams from St. Louis, Missouri. A man who was involved in a burglary gone wrong and the consequences that followed leading to a conviction of first degree murder. And the tragic death of a St. Louis University law student, James Walker, in 1984.

Rondell speaks to us directly from prison, and after 40 years behind bars, it makes him one of the longest serving prisoners on this podcast so far. He will reveal his candid account of the night in question. The struggle in the fatal shooting and the aftermath that would lead to his and his victim's downfall.

Throughout the interview, we'll witness the complexities of the criminal justice system, the prejudice and racial bias that Rondell faced during his trial. Why did he end up committing murder? What led to him spending so much time in prison? And was he treated fairly at trial? These are the questions that we'll ask Rondell Williams on this episode of Voices of a Killer.

Rondell, what city are you from? Uh, city of St. Louis. Did you grow up there all your life? How old are you? I'm fifty seven. Fifty seven. How would you describe your childhood growing up? Did you have a rough time or violence? Did you see violence or how was it? To be honest, if I can remember, the only violence I've seen, somebody that's supposed to have been a father that I wouldn't consider a father, that always got drunk and you see him fightin your mother. So you've seen violence between your parents is what you're sayin? Yeah, it was him. What was that like, witnessing that? Well, as a young kid, like I say, me thinkin back on there, I didn't understand. I didn't know what was goin on. But I knew that for someone to say they loved you and turn around doin somethin like that was very confusing.

Was your father violent against you? In so many ways, yeah. I got six brothers and sisters. So I was the one who always had the finger pointed at. And I can tell you why if that's what you want me to do by getting it out. I have gotten this story as I become incarcerated from my auntie, my cousin, something I didn't know.

And through the years that he was supposed not to have been my real father, right? And then going through the course of me being young, his mother used to look at me strange, and I didn't feel none of that kind of affection from her, but being in prison, I remember my mother telling me in the city jail, she said, yeah, the reason why he always picked on you because his mom and them and his side of the family decided to say that you wasn't his son.

And as times I remember, he'd get drunk and he'd come home. It was like any little thing that he could find that was a mistake, I would get whoopin for it. And, uh, I never heard him say, Son, I love you. I never got a hug by him. I never played around like you see sons and dads do. But, I grew up, cause I left the streets at 18. So I grew up accepting that and not really worrying about it because it was something that I just felt that wasn't going to change. But I just never understood why it was happening until, like I say, my mother told me that and then I put the pieces together. Did she do anything outside her marriage?

And I don't know about. And I still to this day don't know about. And to cause him to be the way that he was with me. Now, he wasn't that way with my other brothers. So you're saying that this was not your biological father? Well, I still don't know that. He passed on 2010. But what he have done to me from the time I was little and from the time I came to prison, it made me have a lot of resentment where I would never say I hate a person because that's not me.

But I will consider to say that I don't love him and I never liked the way that I was treated by him because I didn't understand. And even like I say to this day, I still don't know the truth about that. Now I can talk to my mom constantly and she'll say, Oh boy, that's your father, that's your father.

But I don't know. As a child, did that hurt you to have a father that didn't tell you that he loved you? I would say, honestly, no. But, it's just some of the things that you see. If you see a father and a son playing around, doing things normal, you would expect that same thing would happen to you. But, like I say, growing up, seeing the negative stuff as a man, as the man of the house, and it's always negative.

You get so used to it. For me, you just don't, you don't trip off of it. You just think that's something how things supposed to be in a sense. But then in another sense, you got friends who get along with their father and they play around and joke and you say to yourself, why that those things there don't happen for me.

And then you get to the point where you accept it and not really worry about it. You find something else to take your mind off of it. How was your relationship with your mother, did she tell you that she loved you and cared for you? Yeah my mother she always does that. my mother, she's 80 years old right now. And how would you describe your school and things like that? Did you graduate high school? Did you have issues going through school? I got my GED in prison. I went to grade. I went to Ophelia Tech. And, and I like the school, in my time back in the 80s, there was so much in the household and in the streets.

You have a tendency of going off course because I was doing fairly great in school, but I fell off.

Growing up in the seventies and eighties in St. Louis, Missouri. Rondell shares how he never received the love and affection a son typically gets from his father, leading to feelings of confusion and resentment. As he recalls his troubled relationship with his father he also mentions how he was the target of physical abuse among his siblings. The absence of a positive father figure and physical abuse from a parent is indeed a common thread that can be found in the backgrounds of many individuals involved in criminal activities. Studies have shown that children who grow up without a supportive and loving father figure may be more vulnerable to engaging in delinquent behavior and criminal activities later in life.

The lack of a stable and nurturing father figure presence can have a profound effect on a child's emotional and psychological development. Despite his mother being a supporting emotional rock for him, I was curious if this treatment from his father as a child might have led to Rondell's run in with the law and what behavior led to his eventual involvement in a burglary and a tragic murder.

Did you get into drugs and alcohol whenever you were a youngster? The only thing that I ever did, and being honest, I might drink a few beers and, and smoke a little marijuana. And, and it's obvious though, of course, those things, I don't miss none of that stuff. But I did, when I was on the street, I drank some beers and a little marijuana. And that was it. I didn't do nothing else.

Had you ever been in trouble with the law before what got you there now? Oh no. It's my first offense. The only thing that I ever got in trouble with the law with is basically driving without a license and stuff like that. So you never had a criminal charge before this incident? No. What year did this murder occur?

In 84. 1984. How old were you? I was 18. 18 years old. Bring me back to that day before the, the crime actually went down. What were you doing that day? Me, Kevin Brown, Bernard Orr, and Johnny Tillman. What we was doing, we smoked a little marijuana, we was in front of the laundromat, and somebody had suggested, man, let's go do something, and that was a burglary, and I was like, no, I'm not doing that, because you drink a little bit, and you smoke a little marijuana, and then you get to the point where you persuade, and this is what you end up doing, and when we did that, because I had my car, and when we did that, it was like, We're not going to hurt anybody, and if we break into somebody's house, it's going to be somebody that ain't at home.

Did they have the home picked out? They had a particular place they wanted to burglarize? No, not really. What I found out down the road, because I didn't know this, but one of the guys on the case with me, named Kevin Brown, said he knew a place where people don't be at home. So he suggested, and then the place was right behind, two blocks over from where I live.

And then we all got out and went to the house, and it was dark, and they knocked on the door, and so there's wasn't nobody there. And it wasn't. So did you know the people that occupied this house, or is it just a random house? I didn't know them. I don't think he knew them. There's nobody else. Alright, so what happened next?

We entered the house from the basement I think. One of the dudes, I think Johnny came and knocked the window out. And we entered from the basement. And went up the basement steps and to the house, I think two, uh, answer the basement, and I think me and Johnny or Kevin Brown came through the front because they came through the basement from the steps and opened up the front door.

They opened the door for the two was out front going in the house and seeing that the house empty .Burglers you normally do, they just go random through other people's stuff. Did you feel like once you got inside the house that. It was actually occupied, you weren't alone? It's just a small, downstairs family flat, and like I said, the whole house is dark and there's four of us.

And two rooms in the kitchen. Yeah. The living room. Did you or any of the guys have weapons with you when you went in? One of them did, and I ended up with it, but yeah, one of them did, Johnny Tillman. Did you stick with everybody, or did you go off and do your own thing looking around the house? I went off in my own direction, and that was back in the kitchen there.

Okay. And it was like, in minutes, at the edge of that house, I guess, say, the pieces upstairs, I didn't know at the time, one of the guys said, Hey man, somebody looking in the window. I think it was Johnny Tillman that said somebody looking in the window. Coz at that time, they panicked. They panicked and dropped every little thing.

I think they had some tools, a toolbox, some blazers, jackets or something. So they dropped everything. And see, the front door goes straight down the hall where it goes right into the kitchen. Okay? They knocked the window out. Knocked the kitchen window out. And they jumped out the window. All of them. They leave you behind?

I'm the only one in the house now. And that's why I say, I was in the room next to the kitchen. And it's dark in the house now. It's dark. And you can see shadows. The alley light is on. It's a big glimpse. But that's all you can see in that house. It's shadows. It's dark. What was your reaction when you saw them running?

Did you think to yourself, I gotta get out of here too? Something obviously ran for some reason. Yeah because they seen somebody. And that was my whole thing is to follow suit, pursuit but before Johnny Tillman left and they started searching around for things, he said, man, here, hold this. He gave me the pistol to hold, so I took the pistol with me in the room down the hall.

So you actually got possession of the gun before they all ran? Yeah, they run and jump out the window, and at this time, I put the gun on the bed, and in the back room, they start raising up the window, and I couldn't get the window open, and then I realized the window got nails in it. So, I grabbed a gun back off the bed, and the bedroom is like an angle to the hallway, and so when I run out of the room, that's when I crashed into somebody in the hallway. I was young, and all I wanted to do was get out of there.

Rondell’s decision to go along with this burglary would change the course of his life forever. He recounts how he found himself in the wrong crowd, engaging in drug and alcohol use and eventually being persuaded into committing a crime he initially resisted. On that fateful day in 1984, he was with his companions Johnny Tillman, Bernard Orr, and Kevin Brown when they set out for a burglary, but Rondell insists they never intended to harm anyone, target an apparently empty house that Brown had robbed the year before. Yet, as they entered the darkened premises, a sense of unease settled in, and when one of the group thought they saw someone looking in, panic ensued. As Rondell's companions fled, leaving him behind, he found himself alone in the house, gripping the pistol that had been entrusted to him by Johnny Tillman.

In the darkness and confusion, he crashed into someone in the hallway, and everything changed in an instant. The events that followed would lead to a tragedy that Rondell could have never imagined. What happened next? Who did Rondell encounter in the darkened hallway? And how did things take such a drastic turn?

Did you think to yourself, oh boy, I'm in trouble now? Of course I did. But I also felt if I don't say anything, it'll all blow over. That and more after the break.

You couldn't get the window open because it was nailed shut. You grabbed the gun off the bed. Yeah, back off the bed and I'm running out of that back room into that dark hallway. I run into something and it could have been the police. Do you make eye contact with this guy and you're running from him? How's it? I don't even believe that I made eye contact with him because like I said, being honest, Toby, it was dark.

It was dark, but I know it was a human being. And I struggled with this guy. He grabbed a hold of me with one arm, and I grabbed a hold of him with one arm. So whenever he grabbed a hold of you, was there words exchanged like him saying, what are you doing? Or I called the police? Did he say anything? Or was it just a physical struggle?

Nah, nah. Nah, it was, it was like one of those shocks. It was like something, I told you man, that happened so fast that you can't explain. When I run out of that room for my life. I didn't know what I was going to run into. I didn't even hear anybody running down the hall. All I know, I ran out of that room and ran into them, something and we got struggling, and jerking each other back and I guess I was just a little stronger and I jerked the guy back into a door. I'd already had the gun up anyway on a person's chest or body or something. And, uh, the gun went off. And it jerked me back against the wall. And then it went off again. After finding out when the incident took place and he got shot, he fell and something fell with him, which was, I found out it was a rifle, 22 rifle.

That he had? He had, yeah. And then I snatched the rifle after he fell through the door, which was the bathroom door, and fell to the ground screaming and hollering. And so I grabbed the rifle and I ran out the front door. I ran out the gangway of the house. What was he yelling whenever he went down? I'm shot, I'm hurt. Help me. Or what was he saying?

Well, I just think probably I've never been shot, so I can't say how people feel, but most people say when they get shot, the bullet is hot. So that's the only thing that I probably can think of he was hollering for. I ran out the front door, ran around the gangway out the side on the side of the house, just trying to flee, just trying to get away, and I seen one of my farm partners on the ground in the back yard. This guy stretched out on the back yard on the pavement and bleeding. And yeah, he bust his head trying to jump out the window now the other two gone. Did you help your friend out that was knocked out? Or did you just go ahead and take off? Yeah, I helped him. I smacked him in his face. He came through.

And I said, man, come on we got to get out of here. And we did that. We did that. Did you tell him what happened? Yeah. I did that. Yeah. Yeah. What was his reaction whenever you said you shot somebody? My whole thing. When I say, man, I got in a struggle, the gun went off, and I say, I think somebody got shot, man. I think the guy got shot.

I didn't know if the guy died or not, because when I left, he was still alive. And, it was like, ain't nobody gonna say anything about it. And so, what I did, I gave the .22 rifle to Johnny Tillman. Johnny Tillman was the older guy. He was the older than all of us. He was like 22. All the rest of us was 18. I gave it to him.

And not only that, when he jumped out of that window, he cut his finger open. So it was blood anyway all in the house. Whenever that happened, I know this all was like probably a blur, and it's been a really long time now, but once you pulled that trigger, and you saw that you actually shot another person, and he fell, did you think to yourself, oh boy, I'm in trouble now?

Of course I did but I also felt that if I don't say anything it'll all blow over.As Rondell describes it, the whole incident was a blur, and he never intended for things to escalate to violence. According to court documents, the victim James Walker and his roommate lived in the upstairs apartment and heard a noise in the downstairs apartment. The two decided to investigate the noise because they knew that the occupants of the downstairs apartment were away for the evening. Walker took his rifle, and they entered the front door of the downstairs apartment. Rondell came out of the bedroom at the back of the apartment and in the darkness and panic of the moment, he found himself struggling with Walker, a struggle that ultimately resulted in Rondell firing the gun he had been entrusted with. The echoes of the gunshots reverberated through the house, forever changing the course of both their lives and James Walker tragically died shortly thereafter of his gunshot wounds.

The aftermath was filled with fear and uncertainty as Rondell and his friends fled the scene, leaving behind chaos. The shock of what just transpired began to sink in, and Rondell knew he was in trouble. Despite the gravity of the situation, fear and silence prevailed, and he chose not to speak up about the tragic events that unfolded that night. But he was soon caught by the long arm of the law, and things did not just blow over.

So, I caught up with, with Johnny Tillman at Bernard Orr's house and his finger was cut real bad, so I took him to the hospital and just dropped him off. And I told, matter of fact, the next day I was over at Bernard's house and somebody was knocking at their door.

And open the door there was two detectives. How'd they know to go to you? They was looking for me because this is where I found out. Kevin Brown. And this is where I say from the beginning, Kevin Brown is one of the persons who broke in that same residence in 1982. I didn't know nothing about that. Are you saying this guy, this is his second time breaking into the same place?

Yeah, and that's why I'm saying so what they did and I guess they looked at a report and seeing who broke in this house before. I didn't know it. So when they picked him up for questioning, they didn't tell him somebody got killed, murdered. So it's obvious he gonna point fingers because he don't want to go down for murder.

And then none of them wasn't in the house. And that's just being honest. Yeah. So they can't just say, I just shot this guy. And even God knows that I didn't do that. But It did happen in an accident way, and so they took me down, and I refused to say anything. So what did the detectives say? They say, if you are Rondell Williams, and they really want to see if I'm going to tell because they got my picture there, and like I say, they got my picture there, it's because I've been locked up for traffic tickets and stuff like that, you know, bench warrants.

Mm hmm. And so, I said, yeah. They said, we want to take you down to police station and talk to you, we have some questions for you. Do you agree to go down? So I said, yeah, I agree to come. I agree to go down, but I would never say nothing. Only thing I was doing was deny and denied. And denied. And- Did you admit going into the house? Down the road I did that. When all of them came against me, all three of them, that's the only case. So when they all came against me, I didn't really have no choice but to explain what really happened in the house. Because all they was saying, I wasn't in the house. I left out of the house. And like I say, so they can't say that how he was shot, or who shot him, or what, because they was out of the house.

And like I say, Kevin Brown, when he jumped out the window, he knocked himself out. When I got down to the station, they put me in the interview room, and what they did was, Interviewed all three of them, Kevin Brown, Johnny Tillman, and Bernard Orr. They interviewed them and they all turned the thing on me. And they brought their audios in there and let me hear each and every one of their voices, what they were saying.

They all rolled on you? Yeah. And by this time, they were saying if we don't get you for the murder, we're going to get you for a burglary. Because I was steady saying, man, I don't know what them guys got themselves into, but I ain't did nothing. And I stuck with that for probably 11 hours. And the only reason why I gave in is because I know that I had a lot of stolen burglary stuff in my mother's basement that she didn't know nothing about.

And that's why I used to keep stuff. And when they went to that house, and when they searched it, and they found the pistol, under the radiator, and when they went in the basement, and found other stereos, TVs, and stuff like that, and then ran the serial numbers, found out, this stuff was stolen, they came back to the police station, and say, you know your mother locked up, you got the stuff in her house, and now she in trouble.

It just threw me away that I just blacked out, and I confess until what actually really happened on my part, how the dude end up probably getting shot. So you did admit you're the trigger puller? Oh yeah, and like I say, even as a young man, that I probably didn't know what I was saying, but I still say today, by me actually saying what had happened. I still feel that I did the right thing because that's what happened.

As the weight of the burglary and tragic murder bore down on Rondell, the police eventually caught up to him. His association with Kevin Brown, who had been involved in previous break ins at the same residence, led the detectives to seek him and his accomplices out for questioning.

Initially, Rondell remained resolute in his silence. Denying any involvement. However, when faced with the evidence of stolen goods hidden in his mother's basement, he found himself cornered and eventually confessed what had transpired that fateful night. Not only this, but his three accomplices folded on him.

By interrogating Rondell and the other suspects separately, the detectives sought to capitalize on their fears and uncertainties, creating a sense of urgency to cooperate. This is a common tactic used by law enforcement to play off potential anxieties about facing serious charges, and it highlights that there truly is no honor amongst thieves.

Eventually, the finger was pointed at Rondell. One interesting point that wasn't mentioned in this interview is that Rondell actually videotaped a confession after they were released from their interrogation that was then presented as evidence within court. His reason for doing so was to try and clear up any confusion about premeditation with the case.

Despite this, and despite not having any prior criminal record, Rondell's life would forever change when he eventually faced his charges.

They ended up charging with first degree murder, which is premeditated, right? Yeah, they saying that it was a premeditated murder when by me being locked up all the years and know certain things about the elements of these degrees that it wasn't because we never planned to kill anybody, but we did have a weapon and the weapon was given to me.

And then I find myself in a struggle with somebody. In the midst of me trying to get outta place, I shouldn't have been. I'm not sure if in the eighties felony murder was a thing. I'm sure you know what felony murder is, right? Yeah. Did they get felony murder for being with you? They gave them opportunities.

They gave them opportunities to take. One took 20 years, one got 25 years, and one got 10 years. I went to trial because I felt like what I'd done was an accident. And that's what it was. Yeah. You admitted to doing the shooting, but then when they charged you with first degree, that's when you said, Wait a second, I'm pleading not guilty because it's not first degree?

Is that how it went? Of course, yeah. Pretty much that because I took it to trial. Alright. You basically confess to the shooting, and then you see what your charges are, which is first degree. And that's whenever you said, I'm not pleading guilty to first degree. Is that how it went? No. Thing is, on my indictment paper, they got elements on it.

They got first degree, capital murder, or first degree murder, which were a crime was being committed in the commission of a felony where we were doing the burglary with the intent to steal property. Overall, like I say, going to trial with this and got found guilty of a jury, basically of my own peers, saying that they wasn't seeking the death penalty.

The only thing they could have gave me was life without parole for 50 years. But the thing they told me is this would be also, the dude, both of them, was a St. Louis University law students. Not only just the fact that they was a white guy, but my attorney, Mary Louise Moran, was a St. Louis public defender, chief public defender.

She also was a St. Louis Law Student, she didn't want to represent me. She filed motions to get off my case, the judge denied it, wouldn't let her get off. And then, not only that, the foreman was a black guy. He said I was guilty, and he said he knew me from somewhere, but he didn't. He said I look familiar. Before he was a jury selection. When they jury, they made him the foreman and he said I was guilty, and they asked him could he put that opinion to the side.

He said he probably could, but somewhere down the road he'll be influenced by his own opinion. So where is the fair trial? Where is the improper jury? I went to trial railroaded from the get-go. All these people are St. Louis University people. And I'm still in prison. But I, here's what I'm trying to do. I wanna make sure I understand because you say you did shoot the person, but you admitted that to the police, but then you pled not guilty.

And I'm asking you pled not guilty because they charged you with first degree murder? Yeah. Attorney coming over one time seeing me, asked me, how do you plead? And I say, not guilty. Yeah. Okay. So you pled not guilty. Yeah. Obviously you were found guilty of first degree murder for, for what you said happened.

Yeah, but at that time, they weren't looking at first degree because first degree back then, if you got first degree, that was either a felony that happened in a condition of a felony, which is burglary, arson, and so on. But they found me guilty, a capital of murder.

From everything we have heard from Rondell, it is hard to believe that this case was treated as a premeditated murder, which is the qualifying factor for first degree murder.

Rondell maintains that the shooting occurred accidentally during a struggle while trying to escape the burglary scene, which would imply that the charge would have to been second degree murder. Nevertheless, a life was lost and Rondell has to face the music. During the trial, there was a cruel twist of fate.

The victim, James Walker was a St Louis University law student. In Rondell's trial, his defense counsel was a graduate of St Louis University, and she regularly supervised St. Louis University law students through a clinical program. According to court documents, she maintained that because of her close ties to St Louis University, working on Rondell's case would give the appearance of impropriety. One of her law students knew the victim and could not bring himself to work on Rondell's case or be present while it was being discussed. She also said that Rondell's defense would be hampered by the lack of open discussion. As Rondell correctly states she asked to withdraw herself from this case. The judge denied her motion to withdraw and Rondell was left handicapped through the remainder of the trial facing the capital murder charge. Referring back to the videotaped confession that Rondell made in it, he actually confessed to felony murder in the second degree. In Missouri felony murder is a legal doctrine that holds a person responsible for a death that occurs during the commission of certain dangerous felonies. Even if the death was unintentional under the current approach, the defendant must have personally committed attempted to commit or aided and abetted the felony.

And the death must have been a reasonably foreseeable consequence of that felony. This means that if the death occurs during a dangerous felony, like burglary, and the defendant was actively involved in the crime, they can be charged with first degree murder, even if they did not directly cause the death.

It remains a contentious and complex legal issue, as not only would it have meant a potentially graver charge for Rondell, but it would have meant that the other parties in the case had been charged with the same charge that Rondell received. This didn't happen, and even though his defense presented the charge of a felony murder in the second degree to the jury, unfortunately for Rondell, it was dropped in favor of the higher charge and a sentence of capital murder.

More after the break.

What was the sentence? The sentence was that you be in Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City with the sentence life without parole for 50 years. So he basically gave you a death sentence in prison. Yeah, a death sentence. What was your reaction when he read that to you? Like I say, I was stunned, I was stunned, I was in disbelief. What can you do? How do you feel or explain when somebody give you a harsh sentence? Like, that you're in disbelief because like I say, know what you did and you did something wrong, it was an accident, and people would paint a picture of you the way they want things to turn out for theyself. So I'll tell you, one of my very first interviews on this podcast was a guy that did almost exactly the same thing you did in, I think, 2014.

He got a 12 year sentence. I know it and I look at the news every day and I see all the gang members killing every day and they getting second degree murder. And here I've never had a juvenile record. I've been a juvenile for, like I say, driving, but I never had a juvenile record. And this is my first time ever having a felony.

And this is what I get. And I hate to say black and white thing, man, because I love people and I don't like seeing it, but sometimes that's just what it is. Sure. It's just what it is.

After receiving his sentence of life without parole to 50 years, Rondell was left stunned and in disbelief. Throughout his time in prison, Rondell has grappled with the weight of his sentence and the racial disparities he perceives in the criminal justice system.

Despite his remorse for his actions and the recognition that he has caused harm, he can't help but question the glaring differences in sentencing for similar crimes. While he acknowledges the complexities of the criminal justice system, he can't help but feel that it has treated him unfairly. With so much time spent in prison, I wanted to know what Rondell's experience had been like.

What support system has he found within the prison walls and what challenges has he faced in the pursuit of growth and change? And before we left our conversation, I wanted to know if he saw any potential for redemption.

Rondell, you've been in prison now for decades, literally. Do you still hold out hope that They're going to call your name and say, Hey, you're going to go see the parole board?

Do you hold out hope for that? Or do you believe you're going to die in prison? I got 10 years left. I got 40 years in basically. I was 18. I'm 57. If I do 10 years, I'll be 67. I'm done. And that's not how I should be. But I got a story to tell because the system don't work. The way it should work. I was a man, did something wrong, was scared to say I did it, but I told, anyway, on myself, and it still didn't come out fair for me.

Because, like I say, you're young, you don't know these things, until you get older and you reflect back. Yeah. You reflect back, and you see these big mistakes you made as a young man, and this is ain't no mercy be on you when you either get caught or you turn yourself in. And I didn't turn myself in, but I got told on.

I got implicated, and I'm not saying that it's a 100% bad thing or a good thing because I still have a conscience knowing that I did something wrong by somebody losing their life on something stupid. And we all feel like it. We can take back that time that when I had the opportunity to not even say, come on, let's go do this.

If y'all want to do it, let's go do it. I wish I could say no, but you can't. So do you think you'll be able to make it on the outside if you get out? If you see me right now, I don't look the age I am because I took care of myself. And, that's all I do is work out. And I used to box on the street, so I know how to take care of myself.

Yeah. How's prison been for you? Do you feel like prison's a really rough place? Well, I came in the 80s, I seen a lot. More than what I see now, it's pretty much like a lot of crybabies around here. More than you would say, people acting like men and being men. And to me, it's more pretty sad because when I came, it was, it was a Missouri state penitentiary.

So I learned a lot, how to jail, how to survive, how to mind my own business. And I ain't never really had no problem. I ain't killed nobody. Ain't nobody stabbed me. I ain't stabbed nobody. I had common fights, but that's common in prison. We all know. I ain't beat up no guard. I ain't did none of this stuff.

I got my school out of the way. I worked industry jobs. And I did a lot of good things for myself. Yeah. Rondell, I think if anybody hears your story, if it went the way you explained it, most people would disagree that's premeditated murder. It's pretty unfortunate. I don't know what the law was read back in the 80s.

Maybe there's some verbiage in the letter of the law that's the reason you're in the situation you're in. But it's unfortunate for everybody involved. I hope that you do the rest of your time and the best you can. Hopefully you can get out and be able to live a good rest of your life on the outside. I appreciate it, man.

Alright, holler if you need something, yeah you too, man. See ya. Alright, thank you. Alright, buh bye. Alright. The caller has hung up.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer. Hello, this is a prepaid collect call from Falonzo Davis. An offender at the Jefferson City Correctional Center. I had to go to court because I got shot. What do you mean you got shot? I have a finger off on my left hand. How'd that happen? And he busted the door and he shot me with a 12 gauge and I was shooting back.

I didn't hit him but he hit me. Did you shoot him in the head? Did you shoot him in the chest? It was a soldier in, in war. You react. But the thing is, making the right decision and my decision making that day wasn't good. This was bad, but good man's hit a situation too. You know? That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer.

I want to thank Rondell for sharing his story with us today. His ability to be open and honest. Is what makes this podcast so special. If you would like to listen to the raw recordings of these interviews, you can visit patreon.com/voicesofakiller. By becoming a patron, you can access not only this, but hours of bonus recordings, correspondence, and you can contribute to the way the show is produced.

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I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.