Ep 7 | PAMELA FREGIA Transcript
Voices of a Killer Podcast: Ep 7 | Pamela Fregia Transcript
Sonic Futures: Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers, listener discretion is advised.
Pamela: I've never been in trouble before. Not even a speeding ticket or anything.
NEWS REPORT: Well, new at 10 tonight the Oakdale woman accused of murdering a pregnant woman and her unborn baby back in 2011. Then burning and bearing her body will likely spend the rest of her life in
Pamela: prison. And there was blood all over my floor and it was just like a big puddle of blood on the floor.
Toby: So you're actually claiming that someone else took this girl's life? Yes.
Pamela: I should have called the police and I should have told someone that was sober instead of someone that was drunk.
Toby: So did you at any point go, what happened? Why is there a dead body in my room?
Pamela: Yeah. I didn't say anything actually. I just sat there and held my kids.
Toby: You were now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.
They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They're currently serving time for their murders, and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter now. Here are the voices of those who have killed.
On this episode of Voices of a Killer, we unravel the layers of jealousy, tragedy, and the haunting nature of a longstanding cold case. Join us as we interview Pamela Fregia, convicted for the murder of Victoria Perez. A young woman, eight months pregnant who vanished without a trace after a routine doctor's appointment in Oberlin, Louisiana in March of 2011.
For years, her disappearance were made a mystery for the folks in the state of Louisiana until recent developments shed light on the truth. In this story, you will hear what happened on that day from Pamela's perspective and how her own children played a crucial role in uncovering the truth that led the untimely demise of Victoria and her unborn child.
The details of this heinous crime will send shivers down your spine. So sit back, listen closely, and join us as we bring you this exclusive interview with Pamela and navigate the complex Web of emotions, tragedy, and the pursuit of justice in this compelling episode of Voices of a Killer.
So Pamela, did you have a good childhood? Yes,
Pamela: I had a great childhood. I was adopted and my adopted father owned a construction company, so we gotta travel a lot and pretty much I've been to Rio. They had a cabin in New Mexico, in the Brazos Mountains, and we went there. I stayed there more than anywhere during my childhood.
I ski, I know how to ski. I ride horses. I had a really good childhood.
Toby: Did you ever have any kind of abuse or anything like that growing up? No. How was school like getting along with the other kids? Did you ever have any issues or fights or anything? No. I've actually never been in a fight with anyone other than like my husband.
But no, I made good grades in school. I was on track team. I did cheerleading. I was on the yearbook committee. Four H speak to Farmers of America.
Pamela's, seemingly idyllic childhood is not common amongst killers, but as we'll soon find out, there's a commonality that leads people to become involved in murders. After her first marriage ended, Pamela met a man who would become her second husband. Little did she know that this encounter would forever alter the course of her life.
Their relationship began with promise and hope, but beneath the surface, the storm was brewing. So how did you meet your husband that you had? How old were you and where did you meet him?
Pamela: I was 26 years old. I was a mother of three already. I had been in a marriage from the age of 17 to 24, I think it was, and I was having a pool party at my house and just for like my friend and our kids, we were barbecuing and she asked if someone had come over and I was like, I don't care.
So she went over and picked him up and brought him back and we ended up being together
Toby: since then. So y'all grew to liking each other that night? Yeah. How long were y'all together? Four years. Four years? Almost five. Did it ever get turbulent where things didn't seem to be working out any longer?
Pamela: He started drinking a lot and he started doing crystal meth and smoking mojo, and he was taking pills and so he started becoming very abusive.
And like when I would be at work, he would call me and say, I saw you. You're not at work. And I was at work, but he would just constantly come to my job making sure I was there. I worked at the nursing home and he was always looking for me, making, I guess the drugs, made him paranoid,
Toby: maybe just keeping tabs on you.
Keeping tabs on you. Yeah. So you said he. Was doing meth, he was drinking. Were you just, you were completely sober during this event or were you partaking?
Pamela: Yeah, I had my job and they did random drug tests, so I didn't do drugs.
Toby: So you never
Pamela: got high? Like every once in a while. Oh, okay. No, I had got high before, but when I got that job I had quit and then he just kept going and it got worse somewhere.
So.
Toby: So you stopped for the job. He was getting high and becoming abusive. And what made the relationship come to an end? One night,
Pamela: my sister owned the bar in the town we live in, and he went to the bar with my cousin and I locked the door because he had a key whenever he came in, like he came to the door, he was beating on the door and ringing the doorbell.
So I went and unlocked the door and I was like, why didn't you just choose your key? And he started beating me like, why did you lock the door? Who's in here with you, and it was just me and my kids there. And so I ran to the kitchen and I picked up a chair to try to block him from getting to me. And he picked the chair and threw it, and he picked me up by my neck and threw me down.
And we had to turn and he threw me down on the floor. And when I woke up, he had the chair over my body and he was sitting on top of the chair with his feet holding my hands down. And he was like, can you get up? And I was like, I couldn't. I had an egg exercise of a softball on the back of my head, so I passed back out.
When I woke up, he was crying. He was apologizing to me and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And so I went to my auntie's house the next day and my eyes brought black, and she told me that if I didn't make him leave, she was gonna disown me. And I called his mom and asked his mom to come get him. So she said if she had a job for him in Texas, cause she worked at the plant and some got him.
Toby: Pamela faced a turbulent marriage marred by abuse. But despite the violence she received at the hands of her husband, she still felt a strong connection to him. This is something often seen amongst survivors of domestic violence and Pamela remained steadfast in her desire to win her husband's love. In an attempt to win him back, Pamela hatched a desperate plan to deceive her estranged husband, pretending to be pregnant in a bid to reignite their fractured relationship.
She falsified sonogram photos, and according to a Wikipedia page on which her name appears, this was despite the fact that her family believed that she had already had a hysterectomy. Now, one thing I must add is that this Wikipedia page is on a crime known as fetal abduction. To quote from this article, fetal abduction refers to the rare crime of child abduction by kidnapping of an at term pregnant woman, an extraction of her fetus through a crude cesarean section.
In this small number of reported cases, a few pregnant victims and about half of their fetus survived the assault and non-medically performed cesarean. Now, despite initially pleading guilty to murder in this case, Pamela would like her voice to be heard on that matter. After the relationship came to an end, how much, and y'all were actually apart, how much contact did y'all actually have after that?
Every day or every week?
Pamela: I called a couple times after he left. And
Toby: were those calls to get him back? No. So here, here's what I want to ask you. What's been said through the courts? What's been said through the news? Is that you were trying to get him back. You were making efforts to secure the relationship and get him back to you.
Is that not true at any point? Any point at
Pamela: all? Like, yes. At one point I did want him back because I guess when you know you've been with someone and
Toby: it's difficult to break loose. I get
Pamela: it. Yeah. And that's what you're used to. Even if they're doing something to you, you're just, I guess, I don't know what the word would
Toby: be, but I understand.
I think anybody would agree. It's very hard to break loose from somebody that you've been with. It's if you've ever shared love with someone and then that comes to an end, it's very difficult to actually say, Hey, it's completely over. Most people would agree with that, but what I want to know, Pamela is.
Did you ever try to coerce him back? And just to be honest with us, did you ever say, Hey, you need to come back because I'm actually pregnant for your baby. Did you ever say that?
Pamela: Yes, me and my, yeah. Yeah. So what was his reaction whenever you said, Hey, I got your, he may want to stick around, but I have your baby.
He didn't care. Was he a father already?
He actually has probably five kids that he has nothing to do with. He doesn't have anything to do with, but I actually didn't even know about until we had been separated for about a year.
Toby: So when you told him you were pregnant, obviously that didn't phase him because he didn't, he already didn't care.
Yeah, he didn't care. But when you told him this, you were actually just telling a fib, you're like, Hey, this wasn't true. You weren't really pregnant. Exactly, yeah. Did you ever send him a picture, like to strengthen your fib? Hey, this is the baby, here's the picture of the sonogram. Yeah. What was his reaction then?
He didn't care. Yeah. How long did you try to get him back? What was the time period?
Pamela: Not very long because I actually started seeing someone else and he started seeing someone else,
Toby: The victim Victoria Perez, a beloved native of Lecompte Louisiana, was a young woman filled with aspirations for her future.
According to her family, Victoria was a gentle person who unfortunately crossed paths with Pamela in March of 2011, at the age of 22. Leaving her family and community devastated. According to news articles in court documents, Pamela lured Victoria to her residence in Oakdale under the guise of offering her baby clothes.
Unfortunately, for Victoria, this is where tragedy awaited her:
Pamela: And there was blood all over my floor and it was just like a big puddle of blood on the floor.
Toby: That and more after the break.
So around this time that you're telling them, Hey, I'm pregnant, which you're just trying to secure your relationship with them, you actually knew of someone that was pregnant or you just, you already knew who they were.
Pamela: Yeah. No, actually, she had came to my house and asked for a ride home and I was gonna take her to her mom's house and drop her off.
Toby: So you had never met the victim before. She just showed up at your house and said, I need a ride.
Pamela: No, I had actually knew her. My children's father, I think they were somehow cousins and when she had been to my house before, I just hadn't seen her in a long time, and her sister had actually been homeless at one time and I let her and her baby stay with me at my house with her boyfriend.
Toby: So you knew her prior to her asking for a ride? Yes. Whenever she came to your house for a ride, how far along was she?
Pamela: I really honestly didn't even know she was pregnant at the time. Okay. She didn't look to me to be pregnant.
Toby: You called the victim your friend, but you didn't know your friend was pregnant?
Pamela: No, I had not seen her in a long time.
Toby: So when you reunite, she never said, Hey, I'm eight months pregnant. No, but it's your friend. Yeah.
Pamela: I mean, I know it's hard for you to believe this, but like her sister had even stayed at my house with her baby and her boyfriend.
Toby: The victim's sister? Yes. You know the victim's sister too.
Yes. So you really are friends with the victim, the sister, the whole family.
Pamela: I was friends with 'em by then. You know how like when me and my kids dad got divorced, people just grow apart.
Toby: Sure. And then whenever you come back together, usually it's, Hey friend, guess what, I'm pregnant? No, that never occurred.
Y'all reunited an old friend at your house. She's like literally one month from giving birth to another human being and she never said, Hey, I'm pregnant?
Pamela: It was, do you wanna come smoke? And she said, yes, because like
Toby: eight months is, you could get birth right now and it'd be okay another month, maybe even another month before that.
And usually women are pretty out there at eight months since it's very noticeable. You never noticed a hump on her? No. You said that she was overweight? Yes. Like how much overweight? What do you think she weighed?
Pamela: Uh, maybe two. A little over two Maybe. That's
Toby: not really that big for, you could tell somebody's pregnant.
You really never noticed she was pregnant. You don't have to believe me. No, I can believe you. But let me ask you this. When you're burying her and you're lifting around, you never noticed like a hump then did at any point in time or did. Was it the courts that finally informed you like, oh, by the way, this woman that y'all buried was pregnant at any point in time before the courts tell you, did you know?
Pamela: I, no, actually they had something on the news about her and that's when I found out.
So
Toby: why is it that the prosecutors say that you actually had met her at a hospital where she was eight months pregnant? I dunno. And tell me, why would prosecutors think and state definitively. That you are solely responsible for her death?
Pamela: I don't know. I told him I was there.
Toby: So you're actually claiming that someone else took this girl's life?
Yes. What's the discussion in the household when she's there? Hey, you want a drink? Like, how's the baby coming along? What's going on? Tell me what's the discussion like?
Pamela: We were just laughing and joking and we were getting hot and I was like, oh, I gotta actually, we had just gotta my house.
Toby: What are you getting high on? Mojo.
What's Mojo? Synthetic marijuana. All right. Okay, so this pregnant girl is actually smoking this synthetic marijuana. Yes. And at no point in time do you see a hump or you're like, Hey, congratulations or anything like that?
Pamela: No. I don't wanna say it like this, but I just thought she was chunky.
Toby: So you really don't know that this girl is pregnant whatsoever.
Pamela: I had left and went to my mom's house and her boyfriend, Byron. My first mom, not my adopted mom. I love Victoria and him at my house. Who's him? My friend Ashley had introduced me to this guy and he was a Mexican guy and his name's Joker and I really didn't know his first name, but I knew where he lived and everything.
Toby: So is this the guy you're dating?
Pamela: He was the guy that actually, he had come over and we were smoking mojo together.
Toby: So he's the guy that you're in a relationship with? We were talking, but I had never like, yeah. So this guy you're talking to, his name's Joker, and he's left with the victim at your house and you left the victim and joker together, right?
Yeah. Okay. Where'd you go?
Pamela: I went to my birth mother's house and my her boyfriend's house to pick up my kids.
Toby: Pamela's boyfriend at the time. Joker is an intriguing character with the mysterious persona, much like his namesake in the Batman franchise. This real life counterpart seems to have left an indelible mark on Pamela's life.
While their connection was brief, it evidently had a significant impact on both the lives of Victoria and Pamela. While details about Joker are scarce, one aspect of Pamela's story stands out. Her decision to leave Victoria, the woman who later became the victim of this tragic incident in Joker's Care.
The circumstances surrounding this choice are rather perplexing as Pamela admits to knowing Joker well and entrusting her then friend Victoria safely. To him, this decision raises questions and highlights the unexpected turns life can take. In hindsight, Pamela might have found it peculiar to leave Victoria alone with someone.
She had limited knowledge of adding an additional layer of complexity to an already mysterious situation. So you pick up your kids, you go back to the house where Joker and the victim is. What'd you see?
Pamela: When I went in, it was like quiet in there, so I was like, hello? and nobody was in there. So I went in my room and Victoria was on my floor and it was blood everywhere.
In the
Toby: living room. In your bedroom, kitchen? My bedroom. She was dead? Yeah, I guess. You guess looked dead to me, yes. Okay, so she's dead in your bedroom. What's your reaction?
Pamela: I started screaming and I grabbed my phone and he threw my phone down. And
Toby: Joker threw your phone down? Yes. What's he saying to you while you're screaming?
Pamela: He just said shut up and he was cussing me and everything and I was like, what are the kids doing? He was freaking out. They were in the living room watching tv. I just turned the cartoons on for him.
Toby: Certainly they're watching TV and they're hearing you're screaming about a dead body. They didn't break free from the tv?
Yes. Okay. Hannah, did they run back to the bedroom? Yes. Hannah. Did she see the dead body? Yes. What was her reaction? How old is she?
Pamela: I think she was around 10 maybe, or 11,
Toby: maybe. Okay, so she's 10 or under. Did she understand that there was a dead body? Yes, I'm sure she did. Okay. What's her reaction?
Pamela: She didn't do anything and I was just like, Oh my God, it it, and I just left outta the bedroom and I took her back in the living room and I was sitting on the couch holding her and he comes in there and he starts hollering and stuff.
And I dunno, I just was freaking out.
Toby: Okay. So most of the time when people see a dead body, comforting the kids is one of those things that's happened. But the next thing that they do is they pick up the phone, they call police, they call ambulance. When did that occur? Did y'all call the police or anything?
Pamela: No, he had threw my phone down and broke it.
Toby: Okay. Did you think about taking the kids and running? What happened next?
Pamela: Yes, I did think about it, but he told me we couldn't leave.
Toby: So did you at any point go, what happened? Why is there a dead body in my room? Yeah.
Pamela: I didn't say anything actually. I just sat there and held my kids.
Toby: So tell me what happens next? What's his demeanor?
Pamela: Joker. He was running around back and forth to the living room and back to my bedroom. And so finally he like told me, here, weird. So I was like, no. And he said, come here. And I went in there and he said, help me. And I was like, no. And so then he was like, you're gonna go to jail for this is your house.
And I was like, so I help him clean up
Toby: everything. Why did you help him clean up a
Pamela: murder? Because he said it was in my house and it freaks me out. I had never been in trouble and it just freaks me out really
Toby: bad. So what does this body look like when you see it on the floor? Is it peaceful looking? Is it stabbed to death and look like it?
A tragedy just happened. What does it look like?
Pamela: No, she just had a shot on her, like a red spot on her chest, and it was blood all over my floor and it was just like a big puddle of blood on the floor.
Toby: So at what point did you say, joker? Why did you shoot this girl? I never did. Or is she face up? Yes. It looks like she's been shot in that room.
Yes. You never asked why you and you cleaned up the
Pamela: body. I didn't. I never asked Why? Because I was scared and I was wondering if he was gonna do the same thing to me and my head. I didn't know.
Toby: Now you may be hearing overtones of how this case is similar to episode six of Voices of a Killer where Isis Schauer helped clean up the crime scene of a murder too. We will cover this in the detail later on, but one thing to mention here is how Pamela denies knowing Victoria was pregnant. This became a crucial point for the state's prosecution's case on convicting her of first degree murder, a premeditation for the act of murder, and thus fetal abduction.
Arriving home to such a terrible scene, obviously struck fear into Pamela, so much so that in her own words, she became intimidated by Joker to the point where she was too scared to call the police. Rather, she continued with his plans to get rid of the evidence and the body. So at no point in time you were like, let's make up a plan.
I'm gonna grab the kids No. And get away and run to the police. Nope. Okay. So after everything's discovered, who came up with the plan? Jokers like, we got a bury her? We got a burn her? Bury her yeah. So you help him move the body around?
Pamela: Yeah. We got a blanket and put her on the blanket and carried her out.
Toby: And where were the kids?
They were in the living room and they knew that that one of them saw there was a dead body. Right. So she, yeah, she, so she knew what y'all were doing was putting a dead body.
Pamela: He didn't know what we were doing. Cause she knew, had seen, and she didn't see us take her out
Toby: the car. So your daughter that saw that there was a dead body didn't know what was happening afterwards.
So, Somewhere along the line, this girl's, there was a dead body in my room. Like, yep. And did she never like question like the next day, like, so what happened to that girl that was dead in your room? No, she never asked you. And Joker put her on a blanket, the victim. Yeah. And you pick up this blanket with a dead body on it and you shuffle him through the house.
Yes. And you shuffle this body through the house. Are the kids seeing you holding a blanket with a body on it? No, they didn't see that. And y'all go outside. How far away from the house did you go with this victim?
Pamela: My car was parked in the back of my house and he picked
Toby: her up, put her in the trunk. And so you got to the car, but you delivered it to the back of the car and then he lifted her up, puts her in the trunk, right?
Yes. Okay. Now, is there a time where you say, so what happened? I
Pamela: never said anything.
Toby: You never asked. Why did you kill this woman? I never said
Pamela: anything. Cause I, I was afraid of him. Why were you afraid of? I, we've never, In around anything like that.
Toby: Okay. So he puts her in the trunk. He shuts the trunk. What happens after that?
Pamela: He leaves in my car.
Toby: So he takes her in your car? He drives away with the dead body?
Pamela: We all got in the car and we all left.
Toby: You and the kids got in the car with the dead body?
Pamela: Yes, we rode down by the river. There's a river not far from where I live.
Toby: And is he saying anything on the way? No. Are you freaked out?
Pamela: Yeah, I was really freaked out.
Toby: What did the kid like, the oldest one, the one that saw the body, probably knows that
Pamela: they were, we were just sitting in the backseat and I had, I had my son on my lap and my daughters were on both sides of me, and I had my arms wrapped around
Toby: the one that sold the body.
Though she was a little bit more mature and kids are really resilient. They, yeah. And pick up on things. Did she know that there was something really bad going on?
Pamela: I feel like she knew something was going on because he, I wouldn't, I wouldn't never let anyone drive my car.
Toby: And y'all drove how far away from the house?
Pamela: Oh, five miles maybe.
Toby: And then y'all got out? Yep. The kids stayed in the car? Yeah. And what'd y'all do? Y'all took the body
Pamela: out? No, he got out and he told me, get out. So I got out and he was like, are you gonna call the cops? And I was like, no, I'm not gonna call the cops. And I wanted to call the cops, but I didn't have a phone.
You were scared? So he was like, yeah. And he was like just running around the car and I was standing there crying and I was like, you could just let us leave. And I said, you could just take my car. And he was like, no, just shut the F up. And I just was ready to go. I didn't know what to do. Scared. Scared for my kids.
I was just like, so y'all are
Toby: in my car. Y'all are outside of the car talking about this? Yes. At what point did y'all open up the trunk?
Pamela: He didn't know from number trunks. We drove to the land and he looked around out there and then we went back to my house and got a shovel and we went back to the land and buried her.
Toby: So did y'all still have the kids with you? Yeah. The whole time Y'all pulled the body out with the kids in the car?
Pamela: Yeah, but it was dark outside and they didn't see that part.
Toby: How far did y'all carry the body from the car to where you buried her?
Pamela: I don't know how to measure like a hundred feet maybe. I don't know.
Yeah, it was a pretty good way.
Toby: And you just had one shovel and I guess he dug. Yeah. What was the discussion like while he was digging a hole for the victim? There was none. Were you just standing with the kids or were you standing there with him digging the hole or what? I was just sitting on the ground.
How long did it take for him to dig that hole?
Pamela: A while. I don't really know. It was a while, like hours?
Toby: It felt like it were the kids saying, Hey, I want to go back to the house. I'm tired.
Pamela: No, they had fell asleep in the car.
Toby: Okay. So how, how deep did he dig the hole?
Pamela: It wasn't that deep.
Toby: And she was still in the blanket.
You helped him when he was done, you helped him put her in the hole? Yes. And then he buried it back, and then you joker and the kids just drove back to the house?
Pamela: No, he drove to a gas station in Henderson louisiana.
Toby: He was with y'all and the kids?
Pamela: Yes. He was driving and he got out and got in the car with a guy.
Toby: So he left?
Yes. And you take the kid and you drive back to your house?
Pamela: No, I drove to my first mom's house cause I didn't wanna go back to the house.
Toby: The innocent souls of these children forced to witness and be involved in such a gruesome crime now had to grapple with the aftermath and face the legal consequences alongside their mother.
The trauma they experience and continue to endure cannot be understated. But one thing to remember is that this case did go cold with Pamela, too scared to go to the police. Darkness shrouded the murder of Victoria Perez in the state of Louisiana. Pamela carried on with her life hiding the dark secrets buried deep within.
How did the truth remain concealed for so long? Well, like most killers, eventually the police caught up with her. How long from the time this murder happened to the time that the police came and said, Hey, you're under arrest, or We have questions for you? I don't exactly know how long. Like years. Yes. So you went several years, what was it, three years I believe?
Uh, I think so. That's a long period of time. So from the time you helped bury a body to the time you got arrested, which was about three years, you never thought at any time like, Hey, This was a human being. I need to go and let authorities know that somebody that loves this girl is probably wondering where she is?
How many times I thought about it daily.
Pamela: What made you on a daily?
Toby: What made you on daily basis and what made you not say, let me pick up the phone and just tell people what happened?
Pamela: Because he told me that it was in my house and I knew it happened, and I helped him clean everything up, so I would be going to jail too.
Toby: So, Did her family ever come to you and say, Hey, we're looking for our loved one. Have you seen or heard anything between the time that she was killed and you were arrested no time between that? No. Did the authorities, between the time you were charged and the time the murder happened, come to you and say, we're looking for "x" victim?
No. Did you see any kind of flyers or posters around showing the girl that you helped bury missing?
Pamela: I had seen once on the news
Toby: That somebody was missing? Yeah. What did that make you feel like seeing that on the news and you were responsible for helping bury somebody like that? It made me feel horrible. Were your kids sitting there with you whenever they saw the news come up and your daughter that saw that was like, Hey, that's the same girl that, no.
No. So three years later you get a knock on the door at the, from the detectives. No,
Pamela: I was actually at work and a police officer that I knew from my town came to my job and told me she needed me to ride with her, and so I clocked out and rode with her. What was
Toby: your job at the time?
Pamela: At that time I was working a few jobs.
I was working at Popeye's at the time.
Toby: Yeah. And that's where they picked you up at? Yes, that's where they picked me up. Were you freaking out because you knew that you had buried your body?
Pamela: No, I wasn't freaking out. I was more, I hope this is what this is for. You know, in my mind I wasn't freaking out. I was just thinking in my head, I hope this is what this is for.
You
Toby: wanted to get it, you wanted to like finally relieve your stress over this and tell what happened. Yes. So they picked you up and they, I guess they put you in a room and a detective came in there and talked to you?
Pamela: Actually, no. They put me in a room and I sat there for a couple hours. By myself. And then they came in and talked to me.
And then after that they just brought me to a cell.
Toby: So they never talked to you, they kept you in a room and then they put you in a cell and nobody ever spoke to you?
Pamela: Uh, not until maybe two days later, maybe.
Toby: So, uh, two days later a detective put you in there. And is he pretty frank on what happened? Like, Hey, we know this happened, or was he like, tell me what happened?
Pamela: Yeah, he was like, Can you tell me what happened? And I was like, yes.
Toby: And he basically said, tell me what happened with this person. And he named the victim.
Pamela: He asked me if I knew and I said yes. And he asked me if I had seen her recently. And I was like, no, I, I haven't. I told him exactly what I'm telling you.
Yeah.
Toby: So whenever you're talking to the detectives, are they blaming you? Are they being very like accusatory or not?
Pamela: No. They weren't.
Toby: Okay, so you tell 'em your side. Did they let you out or you stay in there?
Pamela: No, I stay in there and actually I told 'em that I would take a lie detector test and they took me the next day, I think it was to, took me somewhere
Toby: a lie detector for what? Do you feel like they didn't believe you? Yeah. So your story has been the same since you got arrested. Hey, I helped this guy. I just came home to a murdered body? Yes. The relief felt by Pamela when detectives finally caught up to her definitely shows that she was eaten up by guilt. When Pamela was arrested, she was charged with first degree murder, first degree feet aside, obstruction of justice and accessory after the fact.
However, despite all of that, we still don't quite know what the motives were behind the murder. Did Pamela's alleged ignorance shield her from the true intentions of Joker? Or are there hidden layers of darkness yet to be revealed?
Did he ever express why, like, I did this because of this, or this is what happened, or like, tried to give explanation as to why there was a dead body? He never like expressed anything?
Pamela: He, he just didn't express anything actually. Um,
Toby: so you realize that, you realize that murders always have a motive?
There's always a motive. So you had to have done that for a reason. What would you guess that reason would be?
Pamela: I, I have no clue. I wasn't there when it
Toby: happened and during this, he was never trying to like explain why you came home to your own home with a dead body. Like she did this or I just heard this, or I'm sorry I, this is why I did it.
Nothing. None of that? No. And before this, you tell your husband that left you. That you're pregnant and you actually send photos of like as if you're pregnant. Yes. So you think that the prosecutors just pieced that together with the fact that you killed this woman for her baby.
Pamela: That's what they were gonna charge
Toby: me with.
And you have no idea why Joker killed this lady while you were gone. You just got back,
Pamela: I dunno how to say this. My sister wanted me to say this and my friends or mom that I talked to about this, but hey. My husband was Caucasian. It's Caucasian. Ex-husband is Caucasian, right? So Vicky was married to a black man, so all her children were black.
I don't understand why they didn't bring that up in any of the new stuff or anything
Toby: that she was married to black people?
Pamela: Because why would I do that if I was married to a white man?
Toby: Okay, so you're saying that. They're, the courts and the news are trying to say that you were trying to show your ex that you were pregnant and supposedly you killed Victoria for a baby, but yet the baby would be half black or?
Pamela: Exactly.
Okay. But they were brought that up in anything.
Toby: So what was Victoria's actual race of the baby? Who was the baby for? I
Pamela: can't remember his name. He's, he is black dude. Okay. Like I, she's got five children and they're all black. And so
Toby: here's the deal, Pamela, I don't really doubt that you could be innocent because first of all, I don't have all the facts of the case, but what I do have is stuff that you've corroborated that you know, you did text your ex and hey, here's some baby pictures as if I'm pregnant.
And so that's a lot of stuff that kind of does lead back to you, but what's Yeah, I know. I know. Here's my question, Pam is, Joker just randomly killed Victoria. So tell us what happened?
Pamela: I, I really don't know. I was gone to my mom's house.
Toby: After the break. We discover the role Pamela's children played in solving the case.
Did the kids ever indicate they knew what happened? No. So why is it that one of your children told a, uh, Louisiana conservation agent that mm-hmm. They thought you were responsible for killing this girl
Pamela: the morning that all this happened, like all that right there, she had been friends with this little girl, and my other daughter had told me that the little girl had a knife under her bed and she was talking about committing suicide. So I told my daughter she couldn't stay over there anymore and I didn't know they were like girlfriends, I guess they were. And I didn't know she was pursuing that kinda lifestyle at the time, but she called me a b****. And I slapped her in the face and told her, never call me that again.
And then I went to work after that. And then,
Toby: and this is the same daughter that saw the dead body?
Pamela: Yes. Her best friend since they were little, bitty like young little kids, I didn't know. They were like girlfriends and she asked me if she could go stay the night and the night before my daughter, my other daughter, had told me that the little girl had a knife under her bed and said she was gonna kill herself if Lindsay didn't, and your girlfriend.
And I told Lindsay she couldn't go over there and she said, B****. And when she called me that, I turned around and slapped her in the face. And then I told her that she was not allowed to go back over there. And so took them to school, and then I went to work, and then I, everything happened.
Toby: Pamela's children played a pivotal role in solving the case, but their involvement came at a tremendous cost.
Witnessing their mother's alleged crimes, including the murder of Victoria Perez, was a profoundly traumatic experience that no child should endure. Despite the fear and turmoil they faced these brave young individuals found the strength to come forward and share what they had seen. According to news reports, their testimonies provided crucial evidence and shattered the silence that had shrouded the case for years.
After Pamela was arrested, they were put into state's care by child welfare services. However, I wanted to know why she didn't come forward herself. Perhaps the fear and threat posed to her by Joker was impactful enough to deter her from going to the police. But the magnitude of the crime she was involved in must have weighed heavily on her conscience.
Guilt can be a powerful and complex emotion causing individuals to question their actions and the impact they have had on others. It can manifest as self blame, regret, and a deep desire to make amends in Pamela's case. I was curious to what impact this had on her. Was there something more to the motive for this tragedy disguised by her guilt?
So after you and Joker buried this body as time went on, did you ever go back and look at where y'all buried her just to check on things? No, not one time. Nope. Did you worry about. You had helped somebody bury a body out there, did you worry about somebody discovering it? Yes, I did. What's that feel like?
Pamela: It feels horrible. It's like you wanna go and tell someone, but then you're afraid to tell and it just,
Toby: did you tell any close friends?
Pamela: One night was dating someone and we had been together for a while and. My kids had gone to stay the night at their grandma's for the weekend. Cause like once a month they would get to go stay with their grandma from their dad's side and, and, cause I wanted 'em to know their grandparents.
And we had got drunk and I was like, I really needed to tell someone this. And I said, something happened and I don't, I'm afraid to tell someone this, but I really need to get it off of my chest. And I said, somebody got hurt really bad and I need to tell someone. And I, I asked him the next day if he remembered, but he said he didn't remember me
Toby: telling him.
So what did you tell him? Did you say that I came home to a dead body and I helped bury somebody? No,
Pamela: I just told him that someone had got hurt really bad and he was just like, you know, we had been drinking. And I was like, my friend, I, I, I know where she's at. I said, she's, she's dead. And I said, and I don't know what to do.
And I said, I need your help.
Toby: So, lemme ask you this, I, I see a lot of cases like this where somebody in your position with your story gets a really long sentence, which is basically yours. They didn't actually physically kill this person, but they were involved with cleaning up the body. The reason these people get charged so harshly is because not only did they help clean up the body, But they talked about the murder before it happened.
Did you ever text or talk to Joker? No. About physically harming the victim at all, period? No. Never. Does the court say that you did that? No. But the court says that you went to a hospital, found the victim pregnant at a hospital, and said, I have some clothes, some baby clothes for you. The victim then came to your house to get those baby clothes.
You killed the victim. Why are they saying that?
Pamela: I don't know. They said there was a hammer involved, but they have no hammer.
Toby: So you said the victim was shot, was there? Yes. Other injuries to the victim? Nope. Why is there a hammer involved? I don't know. Did the autopsy state that there was beating with a hammer or some kind of blunt truck?
No. Nope, because I read hammer too, but there's actually a gunshot. So you're basically saying that there's no other injuries to the victim besides a gunshot. You didn't see any kind of injuries whatsoever to her head, any kind of trauma anywhere? Nope. Now, if you've listened to episode six of Voices of a Killer, you'll notice a similarity between this case and that of Isis Schauer's.
Both women helped to clean up a crime scene and were given long sentences in both accepted plea deals. In the case of Pamela, however, there was a completely different motive that was assumed by the court documents. Pamela's experience in county jail had a profound impact on her decision making. The harsh conditions and limited resources created an atmosphere that weighed heavily on her mental and physical wellbeing, facing the daunting prospect of a murder charge, separated from her children and in ill health, she found herself in a vulnerable position.
The psychological toll of incarceration can be overwhelming leading individuals to consider plea deals as a means to escape the harsh realities of jail. For some, the choice to accept a plea deal becomes at a desperate attempt to regain control over their lives, even if it means admitting guilt to a crime they did not commit.
This combined with the fact that she had no idea what happened to Joker led to her accepting a plea deal that is remarkable. Here's the thing. I really do believe that prosecutors and detectives can like push things that aren't real. But the news is saying that you're the one that did it. And there this guy that you're saying, joker, he's nowhere to be found in anywhere that I look.
So they have literally charged you and it seems like let Joker off the hook. But you're telling me that Joker is gonna face trial for murder, the same murder that you did?
Pamela: I don't think they let him off the hook exactly. I think the way I was explained myself, he got sent to Texas to, I don't, I think it's Hunt maybe.
Is there a person over there named Hunt? I believe so. That's as far as I know. That's where he went to. Cause he had prior charges over there and supposedly he had to do time over there. Now I
Toby: So, but eventually what you did was you did a plea deal with the prosecutors right? Yes. And tell me about that plea deal.
Your lawyer came to you and said, the prosecutors have a plea deal. I legally have to tell you what their deal is. This is what it is. What was it? I, I
Pamela: actually, because of my foot being broken and the pain I was having from the gout in my foot and I, I was like feeling super sick. I actually called my sister.
And I was like, I think I'm gonna do a plea deal where I can go get some kind of medical help. I said, cause I'm in so much pain, I just can't take it anymore. And so she called my lawyer and told him, and she said that he told her that they could gimme life sentence. That was 22 years. And so she said, just pray about it.
And so I prayed about it that night and I was like, I didn't know nothing about. Yeah. Or anything, or sentencing or anything. So the next day I called for him to come and he came and we were had a discussion and he said, I know life sentence is 22 years, but most of the time you'll do 15 years off of that.
And so I was like, okay. I said, so let me call my sister and tell her that. And I called her. She was like, I would take that if I was, if you need to go see the doctor that bad. And I was like, I do. I really do. So, I took it and then that's not what the life
Toby: sentence
Pamela: was.
Toby: So you're saying you accepted a plea deal and it turned out to be something else?
Pamela: I accepted what he told me that it was 22 years and then I would probably do about 15 years off of it. I've never been in trouble for a day of my life. You could look at my records. I've never been in trouble before. Not even a speeding ticket or anything.
Toby: And what do you have? A life sentence. Without. Life without? Yes. But you took a plea deal. You're in prison for life without, but you're saying what you accepted was like a 22 year sentence with a parole date. Yeah.
Pamela: He said after 15 years,
Toby: that's not what life without is. Life without means. I know that. Now you die in prison. I know that now. So you think that somehow the system is not explained to you properly, what you're accepting, even though life without is not a plea deal.
I don't think, yeah, unless there's execution on the table. I may be wrong about that. So now
Pamela: There was not execution on the table at all.
Toby: All right. So now your current situation, you're gonna die in prison. You realize that, right?
Pamela: I'm not, I don't believe that.
Toby: Here's what I'm gonna tell you. I completely agree that you don't believe with that.
You know why? Because inmates have hope. I've seen it.
Pamela: There's been people here with the same sentence as me that have been leaving here,
Toby: people with life without, and they've been leaving. What happened to the without?
Pamela: Oh, he, they made parole. There's no parole date. We just had a lady about two weeks ago from here that had life without, and she had done 25 years and she went home.
Immediate relief. You know what? I'm fine with doing the full 25 or whatever because I was there and I should have called the police and I should have told someone that was sober instead of someone that was drunk.
Toby: The chances of someone serving a life sentence without parole being released are exceedingly slim.
The legal system is stringent in its application of such sentences emphasizing the gravity of the crimes committed. While Pamela clings to hope, we must confront the enduring impact of her actions lies were forever shattered, and the pain endured by Victoria Perez's loved ones is immeasurable. Before we close out our interview with Pamela, I wanted to know if she felt remorseful for her involvement in this tragedy.
I was also curious as to how she thought she would be able to live life on the outside again. Do you feel bad about what happened?
Pamela: I feel horrible about it every day.
Toby: Can you honestly say that you really had nothing to do with the murder and you just showed up afterwards?
Pamela: I can honestly say it, but everything points to me, and I see that and I know that, but.
Nothing I could do about it.
Toby: Nothing. Do you think that you belong in prison? I
Pamela: think I did belong in prison for not saying anything and I feel like helping clean up and everything and all that and not saying anything. Yeah, I did deserve time in prison for that cause I should have told someone, but not for the crime itself.
Toby: And you could honestly say that you didn't kill Victoria? Yes. They have the wrong person. Yes. How does that make you feel, knowing you're gonna more than likely die in prison?
Pamela: I'm not gonna die. They, they have people that are lifers getting out every day here.
Toby: So you have hope that something's gonna change and you'll get out of there?
Yes, I do. And what is that gonna be?
Pamela: I hope that everything is brought out in the open and to light and that the truth's saying,
Toby: okay, so you think that something's gonna change and you're gonna get out. When do you think this is gonna occur? I don't know.
Pamela: How old are you right now? I'm, I just turned 40,
Toby: so let's say you don't get out, which I think is gonna happen because I don't see them just letting somebody out with life without, I know you've seen it happen, but I think there's, it happens here every day.
Every day there's somebody with life without parole
Pamela: every day. Someone with life without parole gets out from here.
Toby: Yeah. I find that really hard to believe
Pamela: it's the truth. I can give you names.
Toby: Okay. So, Are they getting government Governor Pardons or what? Yes.
Pamela: They're getting their still signed and a government.
Pardon?
Toby: On the next episode of Voices of a Killer. What did you do to her? I choked her out. It was like something was released and out me, like I had a lot of pressure filled up in me and once I did it was like a release I could breathe again or something. Did she fight back? No, she tried. In Arkansas when somebody was hunting, they hunt rabbits, squirrels or something like that stuff.
But in the city it was different cause they was shooting humans. I seen a lot of Violence in those projects. I didn't have no concern for human life at that time. I didn't care. Didn't have faith or never anything. Yeah. Like a light would go off to do it and I would do it.
That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Pamela for sharing her story with us today. Her ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. A big shout out to Sonic Futures who handle the production audio editing, music, licensing, and promotion of this podcast.
If you want to hear more episodes like this one, make sure to visit our website at voicesofakiller.com. There you can find previous episodes, transcripts, and additional information about the podcast. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.