Ep 39 | Reginald Clemons Transcript
Ep 39 | Reginald Clemons Transcript
Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listener discretion is advised. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
You're actually in prison for mur***. Just a simple question. Are you guilty or not guilty? Just talking about it makes me feel sick to the stomach. And y'all, y'all left and went there? Well, actually, we didn't leave. I wish we would have. That's a major thing that you did as a youngster. What's that feel like looking back on that?
Uh, it took us for one person to be human enough and I wasn't human enough at that time. Do you think that somebody that has done what you've done? They don't deserve to be put to death? That's a real good question.
You are now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.
They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They are currently serving time for their mur***.
Just north of St. Louis, the Chain of Rocks Bridge crosses over the Mississippi River. It's named after a stretch of rocky rapids, the Chain of Rocks, that makes the river incredibly dangerous to navigate. The bridge itself, large and angular, connects the state of Missouri and Illinois. Although once a bustling interstate route, its sharp bend and narrow lanes led to bottlenecks in the traffic.
So, by 1968, the bridge was closed and was left to stand, abandoned and empty for many years. This historic bridge also carries a dark past. In 1991, it was the seat of a crime that shook the city of St. Louis. In a highly publicized trial and emotional case, four young men were linked to the r*** and mur*** of two sisters, Julie and Robin Currie.
Today, we're talking to one of those four men, Reginald Clemens. After 25 years of denying any involvement in the crime, Reginald is finally ready to come clean about what happened that April night in 1991. In this interview, he talks to us step by step through the timeline of the night. In Reginald's own words, you'll hear about the police's brutal interrogation tactics.
And what it's been like to spend all of his adult life waiting for his execution on death row. The Currie sisters case has been ongoing for over a quarter of a century. Now, as Reginald Clemens takes accountability for his crime, we invite you to listen to this, the final chapter of the story. Sit back and listen closely to this 25 year old crime on this episode of Voices of a Killer.
So, Reginald, you from Missouri? Yes, I am, St. Louis, Missouri, North County. You was born in St. Louis? Yes, at a born Jewish hospital. Did you have any siblings? Yes, I have had six brothers and one sister. Yeah, do you have support on the outside? My primary support is my mother. Yeah. How old are you right now?
I'm 53 years old. 53. So, what was St. Louis like whenever you were growing up in your area? Well, it was a lot of red line areas as far as the north side of St. Louis was. North County was primarily white and then you had North City, which is mainly black. Most of the metropolitan areas were black back then.
We're African American, and in the surrounding counties were white, and then you had parts of the north side, west St. Louis, that were high crime. And there was areas in South St. Louis that was high crime, but as you went further out, all of Lindbergh used to be considered a suburban area, and so it was, that's how it was back then.
That was back in the 80s up to 91, got locked up in 91, so from what I've heard, it is not the same city anymore, it's so much flipped around. Where the whites used to live is where the blacks are, and where the blacks used to live is where the whites are, so there's a lot of shifts in demographics. Then there's gangs that I've never heard of, so it's a lot of different stuff that has changed in the, I've been locked up for 32 years now.
Yeah, so I've actually interviewed a fellow that he got locked up when he was 15 or 16 years old and then he got out, got committed. They charged him with seven more mur***s while he was on parole, but he was with the Boys of Destruction. Are you familiar with them? I've heard of them. Go deep, yeah. Boys of Destruction.
I've heard of quite a few of them up in there. Was that, were you around that whenever you were growing up as a kid? When I was growing up as a kid, it was, this was crazy because I would grow up, we was doing breakdancing and stuff. We had breakdancing crews. And somehow, the breakdancing crew, well we used to get in a fight sometimes with other breakdancing groups and stuff over girls and things like that.
But those are just little fistfights. Somehow, the breakdancing turned into a gang affiliation. And then gang affiliation came with guns, dr***, and violence. So Interesting. And you got into the dr*** and violence and all that stuff? No. Nope. I stuck with the fistfights and breakdance. Yeah. And I'm saying I wasn't no angel.
I'm saying I got eye hair in there. I'm saying I bought and sold a joint hair in there. But, I wasn't, I didn't buy no pails of weed to sell pounds or anything. What did you do? Hard dr*** like cocaine? I tested it. I tried it out. I was more scared of it than anything to try and use, to be a cocaine user.
Cause, I'm saying cause I think cause I got a brother that's strong on cocaine. So seeing how he was living his life. Well he, I was telling you, he worked at Chrysler, so he had a real good, back then, Chrysler was a real good man job. That was a job where you could pay a house note and a mortgage, right?
But, I'll say it, but he was a struggle. So the time that this happened, the time that this mur*** happened, if I was to ask somebody who was Reginald Clements at the time that this happened, who would they, how would they describe you? I would describe me as, uh, an intelligent, friendly, nice, caring, protective, loyal.
Young man, that was an accurate description that I failed to live up to fully. Why's that? I'm saying because I participated in a gang r*** and I, the only thing, I don't like chalking it up to me being good, one of my co defendants is, was 24 years old and I looked up to him. And there's a part of me that's a follower, even to this day, I kind of shy away from leadership.
I don't want to minimize my own culpability and responsibility for my own actions, but I do try to understand why I did something that I'm against. In a way, Reginald Clemons hasn't stepped foot in the free world in the past 30 years of his adult life. The St. Louis, he knew then is very different from the one today.
In 91, a little known thing called the internet had just been launched to the public break. Dancing crews spread like gangs in the inner city, and St. Louis was cut and drawn by poverty and racial lines blending the city into small segregated pockets. Somewhere in the North county streets of St. Louis lived 19.
Reginald Clemens. He came from a large family, eight kids and two loving parents who instilled strong home values in their son. As a kid, Reginald was creative and inventive. His room was full of contraptions, flickering lights and motors, and his father liked to tell people how Reginald once dismantled and reassembled his Longines watch piece by piece.
Although he dabbled in dr***, Reginald's criminal record was clean and his life was full of youth and promise. Around the same time, just west of St. Louis and Columbia, two sisters were enrolled at the University of Missouri. Julie and Robin Carey, like Reginald, were young with bright minds and futures.
At 20, Julie was an aspiring writer and poet. Along with her 19 year old sister, Robin, Julie was passionate about. Social Justice Issues, and the sisters spent their spare time volunteering in the fight against AIDS or advocating for the homeless. Maybe the best way to sum up who Julie was was through her life motto, which was plastered on a poster in her bedroom, quote, who says you can't change the world, unquote.
It was spring break in 91, and the two sisters were visiting cousins in St. Louis. One April night, they took their cousin, Thomas, north of the Chain of Rocks Bridge to show him a poem Julie had written. Written in graffiti on the bridge. It was titled, do the Right Thing in White Letters and Sign Jewels with a Peace Sign.
Eerily. The poem ended with the words. We've got to stop killing each other. Little did Julie know that these words would foreshadow tragedy as the Carey Sisters' lives crossed with Reginal. So Reginald, you're actually in prison for mur***. Just uh, how old were you at the time? 19. 19. And how old are you now?
53 now. 53. What year was this? It was April 4th and 5th of 1991. Simple question. Are you guilty or not guilty? I am guilty of Participating in the crime of r*** that led up to the mur***, I didn't actually commit the mur***. So, did I hear, did I hear you correctly? You said gang r***? Yes. So, you were involved in a gang r***?
Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. Who was the victim in your case? Robin and Julie Carey, they were sisters, and they were hanging out on a bridge with their cousin, Thomas Cummins. He's their cousin. He was visiting from out of town. And they were hanging out on a bridge. And who were you with? I was with my friends.
Well, I felt like they were my friends. I was hanging with Marlon Gray, Antonio Richardson, and Daniel Winfrey. Yeah. And what was the evening like for you guys? Are y'all getting drunk? Are y'all doing dr*** or what? Well, we was getting drunk and we smoked some weed earlier and we tried to smoke, uh, I don't know.
Joint, they're on the bridge but it had dried out all the way. It hadn't fully cured so. Is that when y'all noticed the the girls there? As we were leaving, yeah. Did y'all approach him? Yeah, we had a friendly, casual conversation with him. Y'all walked up to him and just had a conversation for a while with just the two girls and the male?
Yeah. And how long did y'all talk to them? About 15, 20 minutes. Yeah, what was the discussion like? Y'all just kinda BS'ing about nothing? Well, we talked about the bridge and how it was, uh, had been in the movie, the end of the movie, Escape from New York. And talk about the other times, the times that we had hung out up there and they talked about the times that they had hung out up there and said that they had written a poem on the bridge, spray painted a poem on the bridge called Do the Right Thing.
Do the right thing. Interesting. So, did you and your friends at Worthy, did y'all ever make a pass at the girls? Not that I can remember, no. No. And did y'all part ways? Oh yeah. Where did y'all go? Well, we walked and we was leaving the bridge and they had, because they were coming on to the bridge, we had decided that we was going to leave and go over to another sightseeing view spot over in Arden, Illinois called The Chair.
And there's a hiking trail that goes up to the top of this cliff face. Uhhuh . And there's a rock formation up there. It looks like a chair where it's a good, a nice view of the river. Yeah. It's another good view inside of the river. And y'all, y'all left and went there? Well, actually we didn't leave, which we, I wish we would have on the same evening that Julie and Robin Carey had headed to the bridge.
Reginald was hanging out with three of his friends. His cousin, Antonio Richardson, just 16, was already deep into dr*** and crime. Daniel Winfrey, 15 years old, was an acquaintance that Reginald had met for the first time that day. And the third member was Marlon Gray, at 25, tall and confident. Marlon was the oldest of the four, and kind of the ringleader of the small group.
He was charismatic and charming. Somebody who a young Reginald could look up to and follow. The four men spent the evening drinking and watching a blues hockey game. After the game ended, they took two separate cars to hang out at the Chain of Rocks Bridge along the Mississippi River. At 11 p. m., they pulled up, climbed through a hole in the fence over a pile of rocks, and slipped down into the entrance of the abandoned bridge.
With no municipal lights, the bridge was pitch black. And only a long metal flashlight lit their path as they walked towards the Illinois end. Only when they turned back towards the car did they stumble across the Carey sisters and Thomas Cummins. For 15 minutes, the two groups talked casually. They discussed how the bridge had featured in the movie Escape from New York, and about how the manholes hid a path down to the piers.
One of the Carey sisters gave Daniel a cigarette. Then, they parted ways. The Carey sisters, towards the Illinois end, Reginald and the others, towards the Missouri end, but to Reginald's regret. The group didn't get into the cars, and they didn't drive away.
Somebody made the suggestion that we should attack them. How did they phrase that? Let's go r*** them? Let's go get, you know, what we want? Oh, let's go. I think they said let's go r*** them. I think somebody made the suggestion of going back and raping them. And somebody else said the suggestion was made to go back and rob them.
And it's just you and two other guys? It's me and three other guys. Three other guys. How long did that discussion last to determine whether that's all we were going to do? Yeah, how long? It was less than two minutes. I wouldn't even put it at a minute. It was like a spur of the moment decision. Yeah, once it was finalized, it all just turned around and then walked back towards the girls?
Yeah. And that's when the oldest guy, Marlon Gray, he started handing out. Uh, condoms he started and that kind. So you guys, he handed them out? Yeah. Did, uh, neck became kind of self-explanatory? Sure. I have a question for you. Did any of y'all have weapons on you? No. No weapons at all? No. Whenever y'all, uh, went up to him, did they, uh, see y'all coming and turn around and, and were they were like, you know, why are y'all coming back or anything?
No. When we approached him and started talking to him, we started talking to him and having a friendly conversation. Oh, okay. Did were they, did they seem suspicious? The atmosphere was a little bit uneven? Yeah, they, yeah, they could kind of sense. What did the guy do? Where was he at? Their friend, their cousin.
He was walking along with them and when we got to, just before we got to the halfway point of the bridge, he put his arm around the cousin and told him, come here for a second, and walked him away from the girls. Uh, somebody walked him away from the girls. Yeah, come here for a sec. I don't know exactly what he said to separate them from him, but he said something to him, and So who made the first move on the girls or that guy?
What happened? What was the next step? Well, he grabbed the guy and put him on the ground, and he was pretty about ten. My co defendant who was 24 years old, he stood at about 6'4 probably weighed probably 240 pounds. He forced him down to the ground? Yeah, he just spun him around and laid him on the ground and told him to stay down.
Did the girl, what were the girl's reaction when they saw y'all do that to him? They tried to run and that's when the two youngsters, the younger guys, one of them was 15, the other one was 16. Caught him? Yeah. Were they punching him whenever they caught him or were they fighting back? Oh, well, they grabbed him and held him down and I think Antonio was punching one of the girls.
Yeah. Did they take their clothes off and r*** him? Yeah. I was watching over the guy at the time. And more than that, I went and helped Tony r*** the first girl again, which was Robin. And then I went and r***d the second girl. Were the girls pleading with y'all? They were at first. And they stopped? Yeah.
Did you do it? And, yep. Everybody? I had r***d Robin.
How does that make you feel now knowing that you did that? I hate it. You hate it? Yeah. Did you think you were going to hate it whenever you were doing it, or how did you feel whenever you were doing it? When I was doing it, I'm doing it to fit in and doing it because it's what was happening at the moment.
And to this day I wrestle with understanding how, why, and it took me a long time to forgive myself. But I don't, I still don't fully understand. But one thing I do know for absolutely certain is that I'd never do anything like that again. It's something that I hate. Just talking about it makes me feel sick to the stomach.
It's hard to keep track of exactly who did what that April night. Later testimonies would conflict with each other, leaving inconsistencies and open questions about the course of events. After the two groups parted the first time, Reginald and the others decided to turn back and rob the girls. According to Antonio, it was Reginald who initiated the robbery.
The idea of robbing the girls. Daniel Winfrey would later claim he was intimidated by the others into taking part, and in Reginald's account, Marlon Gray handed out condoms as the men walked back up to the bridge, essentially turning what could have been just a robbery into a brutal gang r***. The details are graphic and hard to hear.
Thomas Cummins was pinned down by the tall figure of Marlon Gray. The clothing of the Carey girls was ripped off then. The men took turns raping Julie and Robyn Currie as they screamed, pleading for help. A casual, chance meeting on an old bridge had descended into senseless, abhorrent violence, and Reginald, caught up in the peer pressure of this moment around his friends, had abandoned the values he stood by.
So what did y'all do afterwards? Well, dude, after they were r***d, Thomas Cummins, he was robbed. I don't know who robbed him. I think it might have been Tony. I It was either Tony or Danny. I don't know Rob Thomas Cummins, but I know that me and Tony got into an argument about whether or not they'd live or die, because he said something about killing, and then he said, we gotta kill them, and I'm like, what?
No. So hold on a second. That's when I, and that's when I snapped out of it. Well, I wanted to ask you, whenever y'all were arguing about that, did the victims hear y'all talking about that? Yeah. Were they pleading and saying, you know, whenever they heard that, were they pleading with you? Well, only the guy heard it.
Uh, I don't think the girls heard us arguing about it, but it's all over. Yeah, so Reginald, you and the other guy were talking about basically killing the witnesses and you were pleading with them not to do that, or were you saying you should? Yeah. Yeah. No, I was telling them, no, we're not doing that, and that's, that wasn't gonna happen.
We, uh Did you pretty much lose the vote? Did the other guys know, know we have to do this? No, the other two guys had already left the bridge by that time. Oh, they ran off? Yeah. I don't know the reason why it trickled off that way. Well, no, after he got the talk, it's just, I remember now. After he got the, uh, talk about let's kill him.
That we need to kill them and everything. I didn't know why he had started saying that. Later on, I found out because he realized, seeing that the guy had a badge in his pocket. That's why he decided, that's why he flipped and was talking about killing them. At the time, I didn't know what it was, but when he started saying that, that's what snapped me out of Going along with all this bullcrap.
Going along with what all was going on, cause I'm like, no. What did you do? Did you run off or did you stay around him? No, I told him no, we're not finna kill him. And then I told, Marlon Gray had already left. So, I told Daniel Winfrey. To go get Marlon. So who's holding? And then that's the girls aren't getting back up and running away, or they hurt too bad.
I think they probably hurt too bad. Wow. So y'all hurt 'em pretty bad right there. I I, they didn't try to run away at that point. Okay. So yeah, it is hurt. Too bad to resist or anything. What happened next? So. I told them that we were going to put them up under the bridge without their clothes on so they couldn't follow us.
That was my logic at the time. They were still alive at this point and y'all took them underneath the bridge, is that what you said? We put them up under the bridge, laid them down on the bridge, and left. And we were, we exposed them. Daniel went free, yeah. Hold on a second. When you put them underneath the bridge, were they talking to you or conscious?
I didn't get down up under the bridge at that time. Do you know if they were still alive at this point? Yeah, they were still alive. But you didn't help them put them underneath the bridge? Yeah, because there's a platform right there. We laid them on the platform. So did you walk them, did they get up and walk over there and then you set them down, or did y'all have to drag them over there, or what?
No, we walked them over. Okay, so they're not talking to you or anything? And then what happened? And then put him up under the bridge and laid him down on this platform that was up under the bridge and started leaving. And Daniel Winfrey had already left because when we was putting the girls up under the bridge, I was just trying to get everybody to leave.
Because I'm not, I'm just saying that it's gone too far. And like I said, that's when I started talking about killers. That's what sat me out of whatever stupid mind thought process I was in or whatever. And then what happened? Wherever my head was at, that snapped me out of it. When you say snapped you out of it, do you mean now you're like jumping back over to where you're going to call the police and stuff?
Well, where I don't want to continue to be a part of this. Okay. So, what was the next step then after that? Y'all put him underneath the bridge? Laid him up underneath there? Yeah. Yeah, and then you were the last one there? No, it was me and Tony were the last ones there. Okay, and what happened next? We started running to leave and That's when Tony turned around and went back.
Tony went back and did he go over there and kill him? Oh, yes, he lined him up and pushed the two girls from behind and then told the guy to jump. Oh, he shoved them off of a bridge? And what was below the bridge, water or? Water. Was it a very far distance? Yeah, it, it has, it's a, it's high enough to probably, to probably knock the wind out of it.
So did you watch him push him? Yeah, I saw it. Around the corner of the bridge, right when I
The four men had r***d the Currie sisters and robbed their cousin. Now they were left with three potential witnesses. What should be done with them? Of course, it was dark and there was a good chance that the three couldn't see any of their faces. But Antonio found a firefighter badge in Thomas wallet and panicked, thinking Thomas was a police officer.
He fought with Reginald about whether or not to kill and silence them, or let them go and risk being caught. Eventually, Anatonio and Reginald forced the three through a manhole on the bridge which led down to a substructure. They were lined up along the pier that lay over the dark, swirling water of the mighty Mississippi River beneath them.
Then, the Currie sisters, naked and bruised. were pushed into the river. Thomas was forced to jump. All three took a 70 foot fall into the icy, rough rapids of the Mississippi below. This part of the case has been subject to a lot of debate over the years. Who exactly pushed the girls off the bridge, sending them to their deaths?
According to Reginald, the culprit was 16 year old Antonio. Reginald totally objected to the idea of killing them. By that time, Reginald had snapped back to reality and he refused to cross the boundary into becoming a killer. In this story, Reginald was an accomplice to mur***. Not a killer himself, but Reginald also recognizes today that his hands are not clean.
He did nothing to stop Antonio as he watched him push the girls and Thomas off the pier. More on that after the break. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey everyone, Toby here. As we step into 2024, I've been reflecting on what aspects of my life and myself I want to keep constant. Instead of the usual new year, new you mindset, I'm focusing on new year, same awesome me.
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What was that like watching that somebody being pushed to their death, not just one person. Uh, there's something that's locked in my head that I try not to think about, but I do. Do you ever have nightmares over it? I used to for like about, I'd say about a good 12, 15 years afterwards. Whenever he pushed those victims off the bridge, did they, were they pleading with y'all?
Yeah, they were pleading from the beginning. But when he pushed them, they didn't know they were about to be pushed. I didn't think they knew that they was about to be pushed. I think they were in shock at that point. Did y'all watch them in the water and to check to see what happened, or did y'all just push and leave?
Did y'all check to make sure that they had died? Well, after the guy had jumped, I didn't even wait to see him hit the water. Out to Egypt by S9MF. That's a climb up. Where did you go? Did you get in the car with the same guy that was pushing him? Yeah, he was riding with me and the other two guys was riding in a separate car.
Whenever you got in the car with this guy, did y'all talk about what just happened? Not really. We said we was going over to Alton. And drove a window over to the, to where we were going in the first place, where we should have went. So y'all went and hung out somewhere else? Yeah. It's almost like you just picked up right where y'all left off.
That's kind of crazy. It almost seems callous. What was the discussion like when you got to this next place? It was talking about That nobody should ever bring this up and talk about it again. Right, so y'all had a pretty good discussion about what not to say and all that stuff. After y'all were done with that discussion, where did y'all go?
They went to Wentzville and then we drove back to St. Louis. How long was it after that happened that day did you hear it in the news or get contacted by the police or anything? We're hearing from your friends that you got discussed again. It happened on a Thursday night, early Friday morning, and the police came and arrested me.
Well, they came to pick me up for questioning on Sunday. So from Thursday to Sunday, you were free. What was it like being in that time period? What did you do? What were you thinking? I was just, I was trying to figure out what should I do. Yeah, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know What should I do, uh, if I should call police or if I should just stay quiet and not say anything?
So Did you tell anybody? That's when Well, the next morning I seen the bridge, the Chain Rocks bridge on the front page of the newspaper. Oh, you did see it on the front page of the newspaper? Yeah, when I seen it on the front page of the newspaper, I didn't even need to read the article or anything. But did you read the whole article?
You just, you wanted to kind of not think about it, you just saw it and uh, carried on? Right. I never thought about that till now, but yeah, I, I, I saw it and I didn't want to think about it.
Stopping at a gas station for food and cigarettes, they drove up to an observation cliff known as The Chair. As they overlooked the same dark Mississippi where the Currie sisters had just drowned, the four men promised not to speak about the night ever again. But if Reginald and the others thought that they'd silenced the witnesses, they were wrong.
Thomas Cummings hadn't drowned. Let's wind back briefly to the moment when Thomas jumped off the pier. He'd plunge into rough waters and, fighting the current, caught sight of Julie. His cousin grabbed hold of him, but they were dragged below the water and, when Thomas resurfaced, Julie didn't reappear, come and swim to a steep riverbank near a wooded area a few miles down from the bridge.
In the early hours of the morning, Thomas, covered in mud and silt, flagged down a truck and was taken to a police station. Initially, Thomas Cummins was an immediate suspect. Although Thomas told them the full story, police believed it was a cover up. Police found it suspicious that he had survived a 70 foot fall without major injuries.
They had theorized that Julie had resisted her cousin's advances and fallen off the bridge, with Robin jumping in after her. To add to the police's suspicion, Thomas then failed a polygraph test. This was evidence enough for the police, and they arrested Thomas for the mur*** of his cousins. Perhaps that's where the story would have ended, with a wrongful conviction.
The police followed a trail of breadcrumbs down another line of inquiry, and this led them to knock on Reginald's front door. So whenever the cops came and they, did they barge in and arrest you or they just knocked and said, hey, we want to talk to you? They just said they wanted to talk to me because I wasn't under arrest or anything.
Whenever you say, but whenever you, they came there, you knew what was up. Did your heart kind of drop on you? Yeah, I already knew. I think I was kind of numb a little bit. Yeah. I don't know. I don't really Yeah. Did you ride with him to the station? What was that car ride like? Did y'all talk about anything, because I'm sure they probably wanted to wait until you got in there, right?
Yup, yup. Whenever you did get in there, did you confess or did they ask you where were you this night or what happened? Well, they asked me and they questioned me and everything, and I told them I was going to the bridge and talking to them. The girls and their cousins, uh, Robin and Julie Currie and Thomas Cummins.
So you did admit that you were underneath the bridge and that was not discussed prior to say, Hey, we admit that we were at the bridge, but we don't know nothing about these people. Or y'all didn't come up with any kind of plan like that, but you decide to say that, yeah, we were at the bridge. Yeah. Yeah. I told them that we were at the bridge and then, but we decided to leave.
Okay. And they said, well, we, when we was leaving, we talked to some people and then after we talked to them, we left. Did the detectives let you go after you told them that? No, they told me they know what happened. They know I had something to do with what happened to them girls. And, and they, that's when they started beating me and, uh, beat me into confession.
Physically beating you? Yeah. How did they do that? They started with them slapping me in the back of the head. And then other detectives slammed my head against the wall, pulled my chair against the wall. And slammed my head against the wall and had me sitting on my hands. Were you fighting back when they were doing that or were you kind of scared of them?
I was scared to fight back. And they had me, and they had me sitting on my hands. They told me to sit on my hands before they started slamming my head against the wall. How long did they get physical with you to confess? I don't really know how long they got physical with me, but it's probably, it's so long ago, but it's probably about a good 30 minutes, 45 minutes or so.
And you finally told the truth, after you told them that they stopped getting physical with you? Yeah. Did you feel kind of a relief to be able to tell them what really happened? I was crying like a baby. I just, I couldn't quit crying the whole time I was telling them about it. How did they know to go to you?
Well, they had found a flashlight that we had lost on the bridge. And the flashlight ended up leading them to Tony, Antonio. And Antonio Richardson told them who I was and where I lived at. At the time they had to release him because he was a juvenile. I took them in for questioning to obtain information from them without any parent or guardian present or an attorney.
So, after they got information from them, they had to release them. Got you. And then they got your name and went to you? Right. Whenever they finally got the confession out of you. And you're basically put in jail. Did you have a bond or was there no bond? The first time around there was no bond. There was a bond for 250, 000.
What do you think about that day? That's a long time ago. You were a young adult and now you're a mature adult. What does that feel like to look back on your younger self and know that you went through all that? That's a pretty I mean, the r*** is in itself was really difficult for me to hear. I can't lie.
I was cringing the whole time and then trying to imagine what it would, that would be like and then to lead to the whole death to top it off. That's a major thing that you did as a youngster. What's that feel like looking back on that? It feels horrible. It feels stupid and confused. Looking back, I'm saying, I look at all the damage that I've done.
I've done to people in my family, I realize the damage that I've done to the victim's family. And all it took was, I've, I've, I, the thing that it eats at me is, all it took was somebody to say something before the attacks. All it took was for me to say, no, we're not going to go back. All it took was for me to just keep going and not go back with them.
All it took was for one person to be human enough, and I wasn't a human enough at that time. In the end, it was a long metal flashlight that incriminated Reginald. Left on the bridge on the night of the mur***s, the flashlight was traced back to Antonio. And when the 60 year old was taken into custody, he named Daniel, Marlon, and Reginald.
By the 7th of April, police had rounded up the four young men and pieced together the story. Both Antonio and Daniel confessed the full chain of events. Daniel taking a plea deal to testify against the others. The older two, Marlon and Reginald, denied involvement, but both were beaten brutally into confessing that they'd r***d the two women.
Reginald ended up in a hospital because of his injuries. At the end of the interrogation, police were left with four stories that were consistent with what Thomas had told them. Thomas was cleared and released, and the four men awaited their day in court. Halfway down the Chain of Rock's bridge is a state border.
The west half of the bridge falls in Missouri and the east half in Illinois. That detail mattered considerably in the lead up to Reginald's trial. Prosecutors argued that the Kerry girls were pushed on the Missouri side of the bridge, which meant that Reginald would be tried in Missouri. Today, Missouri allows the death penalty.
While Illinois does not, and even in 1993, Reginald's lawyer believed that a Missouri trial would be unfavorable towards Reginald. The prosecution sharpened their case, the jury was assembled, and Reginald prepared to face a Missouri courtroom. Knowing that a death penalty sentence was on the table. Yeah, whenever you went to trial, did you plead guilty?
No, I took it all the way to trial and I didn't testify at trial. So you decided that even though you confessed to the police that you were going to try to say that you didn't do anything? I never did take the stand because I didn't want to get on the stand a lot. Right, your not guilty plea was basically trying to say that you had no involvement whatsoever?
Right. That's, uh, I have my own mission. Who did they sentence you to? I got sentenced to death. And I had an execution scheduled on June 17th of 2009. And on June 5th, I got blessed by God to get a stay of execution. Is that stay permanent, or is it, was it just a, when the, I mean, kind of chemional stay? I want to make sure I understand this, and I'm pretty sure it is.
It was stay of execution, uh, halt stay execution. And I say I got blessed by God because a bird came and sat with me all day that day. And I didn't know why at the time, but at 445 that afternoon on June 5th, I got a stay of execution which meant it halted the proceedings of hospital execution on June, that was scheduled for June 17th.
And then a order was, a month later, an order was issued to open and review my whole case. My case got thrown out in 2015 based upon Polish Brutality of all things. And I say that because Polish Brutality is hard to prove even if you have a video of Polish Brutality. So, that's why I know I'm blessed by the mercy of God.
Yeah, did your, uh, co defendants, did they go to trial as well? Yes, Marlon Gray and Antonio Richardson went to trial as well. So, what did they get? Oh, they got a death penalty. The end. Daniel Winfrey, he testified on behalf of the state for a 30 year deal. Gotcha. And do you feel like the guy that testified for the state, did he do as much as anybody else?
No, not really. Okay. So, is the other, the co defendant they got, the death penalty, is he in the same prison as you or is he in licking or what? Well, Antonio Richardson, he got taken off a death row based on a juvenile law. Gotcha, he was the one that was 15 at the time? Yes, and Marlon Gray ended up, he got executed on October 26, 2004.
How much of a role do you think he played in all of it? Well, he was a 24 year old. He was the one that was, he was the one that was in charge. Yeah, is he the one that also pushed him off the bridge? No. No, he wasn't on the bridge at the time that they were pushed off. What happened to the one that pushed him off the bridge?
He was a juvenile at the time, so he ended up getting taken off of death row under the juvenile law. Yeah. Is there a chance that you could be put back on death row? Um, no. No. After my case got vacated and thrown out in 2015, the prosecutor reissued charges, and a trial never did get scheduled. But I took the opportunity to take responsibility for my role in the crime and play it out to second degree mur***.
Reginald's case had been marred by years of legal battles. Although he confessed to participating in r*** to police in 1991, from then on, Reginald denied any involvement in the crime. At his trial, he pled innocent and for 25 long years, he maintained that innocence vehemently, even when he was condemned to death by the jury.
In fact, Reginald professed his innocence so strongly that he received a swell of community support, high profile advocacy groups like the NAACP and Amnesty International, fought for his innocence and actor. Danny Glover spoke out in support of Reginald. In 2005. The Justice for Reggie campaign was launched with a single mission to free Reginald from prison.
As people look closer at Reginald's case, they found a host of police misconduct. This case seemed to exemplify all of the problems that exist within the American criminal justice system. Reginald was brutally beaten into a confession by police. Prosecutors lacked any physical evidence to tie Reginald directly to the crime and the prosecution stacked the jury along racial lines so that it was composed of 80 percent white jurors who might be predisposed against a black man.
All the efforts of advocacy groups seemed to work. Just 12 days before Reginald's execution date, as he sat in the Bonterra Prison, where the execution chamber is, Reginald received temporary stay of execution. It was a lifeline. A month later, a special master was appointed to Reginald's case and brought the police brutality to light.
In 2015, the Missouri Supreme Court had to discard Reginald's confession because it was coerced. And they ended up throwing out Reginald's conviction entirely. After 24 years on death row, Reginald's life was spared. Now that he was freed from the death sentence, Reginald was ready to admit the truth about his actions on that night in April 1991.
More on that after the break.
Whenever you were on death row, did you think about death a lot? Yes. Did you think about the act of dying and death or both or what? Yeah. Yeah, and tell me if this is true or not, because believe it or not, I mean, I've talked to a lot of killers and some of them are housed with death row inmates. And I've been told that being on death row, that some people, that the thought of that, the thought of someone having a death date and somebody else is going to kill them in a certain way, you can kind of go crazy thinking about it.
Is that kind of something that you've been through? Fortunately My loving mother visited me every week that I was on death row, and I'm saying my faith in God has helped me hold it together, but I have seen some people straight lose it. We're whatever humanity they had, I'm saying it's the stress of possibly being executed and being on death row for an extended period of time at a certain point.
But I'm actually kind of reconciled to go ahead and be executed instead of continuing to be under the pressure. Was suicide ever an option? No. That is something that I don't ever let be an option. I'm saying. As a thought crave across my mind, I'm saying I'm a thinking, feeling human being. Yeah, the thought crossed my mind, but it's definitely not an option.
I'm far from suicidal. As, because suicide is an extremely selfish act. Because somebody in this world loves you. And that's who's going to have to live with my pain. I always felt that way about death penalty. It punishes the family of the condemned more so than the condemned, because my execution will only last, the procedure itself will last 15 minutes max according to the protocol.
But after those 15 minutes, my family has to live with it. And my family still has to deal with what I've done and I've apologized to my family. Have you ever gotten any hate mail from the victims or anything or the public or anything? Well, I ended up locked up with one of the victim's family members and he overheard me taking responsibility for my, for the crime, for my role and everything.
And he found it in his heart to forgive me. Which meant everything. Did he approach you on that matter? Yeah. Yeah. What was that like? That was weird. You already knew that this was a family member? I didn't know. I didn't know who he was. Somebody approached me and told me A member of the victim's family is here, and they heard you taking responsibility for your role in the crime, and they said they're working on forgiving you, but give them time.
They'll approach you when they're ready. And I respected that. I didn't try to find out who he was or anything, and if he saw fit to do me harm at that time, I felt like he had the right to. And I thank God that he had this heart to forgive me because Help me heal a little bit, reclaim some of my humanity, and help me to try and give back, and help me to forgive other people.
Do you think that's somebody that has done what you've done? They don't deserve to be put to death? That's a real good question. Um And I think the best way for us to look at that, because, you know, I think this is what we all do, is it's, you know, what if this would have happened to your, you know, loved one?
You know, somebody that you cared about. Personally, I'm against the death penalty no matter what. And there's a lot of reasons why I feel that way. What's the main reason? One thing, what you say is for, do a person deserve to be executed? I, I did say that if he did see fit to do me harm, he'd have been well within his rights.
But I don't think the state should be executing people. That's the best way I think I could possibly answer that. Debates over the death penalty have been waged constantly in the U. S. Currently, Execution is an available form of punishment in 27 of the U. S. states. But not everybody who is sentenced to death is guilty.
Nationwide, 130 people have been freed from death row. 20 in Missouri cleared of their crimes. And African Americans make up more than 40 percent of those on death row. In an interview, Reginald once compared Death Row to quote unquote, it's like somebody pointing a gun to your head every day and telling you that I'm going to kill you someday.
I just haven't decided when. Should the state have the right to take somebody's life? To Reginald, that's an ethical line that should never be crossed. And strangely enough, Reginald shares this belief with one of the victims of his case. Julie Currie was a member of Amnesty International and During her brief life, she opposed the death penalty.
Three weeks after she was pushed off the bridge, Julie's body was found 150 miles downriver near Carothersville, Missouri. To this day, Robyn Currie's body has never been recovered. The last 32 years have been excruciating for the Currie sisters family. As they were left with unanswered questions, imagining the horrors that the two girls went through in their final moments of their lives.
But in December of 2017, the family got a small slice of closure when Reginald finally publicly admitted to his guilt in the crime. He admits responsibility for both the r***s and being an accomplice to the mur***, as he wasn't able to stop the girls being pushed. Finally coming clean, Reginald had also apologized to Ginny Currie.
The long suffering victim's mother saying, quote unquote, I'm sorry, Mrs. Currie, for all I've put you through. When Reginald committed his crime, he was 19, now he's 52. In the final chapter of the story, Reginald Clemens has another opportunity to find peace with his past and make amends for his future. So Reginald, looking back, looking back on the moment that you guys decided, that moment that y'all had actually walked away and were discussing going back, that moment that you actually triggered into action, looking back at that moment, what would you say to somebody that was, you know, that's 15 years old, 19, 24?
All hanging out in a group like that and there's this moment, what was that moment that made that happen that somebody else couldn't know and to look for, you know what I mean? That is a time for you to take courage because you will hate yourself for a long time. You are never here to change your life for the rest of your life.
So if you find yourself in a stolen car, Get out. If you find yourself with some people walking around with a gun that they know, that you know and they know that they're not supposed to have, excuse yourself from the situation. Find a way to tell them, find the courage to tell them what they're doing is wrong.
Because sometimes just telling somebody that at that moment can snap them out of what they know is wrong and their humanity and everything. Sometimes all the situations take is for somebody to speak up and say what makes sense, and that helps. Are you ever in contact with your co defendants? I have been because we were locked up together, but I haven't been in contact with Daniel Winfrey.
But I do understand why Daniel Winfrey Testify for the state because I'm saying it was the only right thing to do. Are they all remorseful? Do you know if they are? I don't know. I think, I'd like to believe that Marlon Gray was remorseful, but And he didn't want to say it publicly because there was a lot of publicity in the case.
And I'd like to think that Antonio Richardson is remorseful because I'd hate to think that somebody could do something as horrible as what we did and not feel sorry for what they've done. It's definitely a A pretty difficult story to hear. I'd probably say one of the worst I've heard so far. I am happy to hear that you're remorseful about it and, uh, and I can tell that you really are.
It sounds like you're pretty happy not to be executed. Uh, honestly, I don't, I go back to the saying that, you know, of course, if somebody hurt one of my loved ones, I would want them dead, but obviously there's also A lot of people that are executed that have been executed, they might have been innocent, so And that's why I say, God, I was blessed by God, because I know that there's innocent people that were executed.
I'm saying Larry Griffin is a person that was clearly innocent. The person that was shot with the person that was killed said that Larry Griffin didn't do it. But the state executed Larry Griffin because he wouldn't give them information. And this is documented. So, if he got executed under those circumstances, and I didn't get executed based on Polish brutality, I, and that's where I'm, I owe a great debt.
And I'm trying to strive for redemption. And I was saying, and help where I can. What's your next step in life now in prison? Because it's not like you're getting out, but you're going to live the rest of your life in prison now. So what is that journey going to be like? Well, um, right now I'm working in this rehabilitation program called re entry.
And help people who already have outdates on their way home prepare to go home and prepare to have a plan called Reentry 2030 and it's supported by the Governor of Missouri, Mike Barson, and the Director of the Department of Corrections, Anne Precite, and I feel like it's just an opportunity for me to help with crime reduction, help stop a person from going out there and committing crime like I should have did in the first place.
Do you think it helps to, you know, talk to other inmates like that, or do you think that, uh, you know, it's, they're criminals that can't, you know, get over it? I believe it helps. Yeah, I've seen it help. I've seen, for those that commit to the program, I've seen the change. Well, Reginald, I appreciate you reaching out to me, man.
It's, it's, it was a good interview. Lots of serious stuff going on. It's crazy that you're, I'm talking to somebody that was once, you know, gonna be put to death by the state of Missouri. You know, crazy stuff out there going on, but, uh, I'm glad you're remorseful, and I'm glad the world gets to hear that you're remorseful as well.
So, people are gonna at least get to hear that, you know, you do admit that it was horrible and you're sorry for that, so that's a good thing, okay? So, appreciate it, man, and take it easy. If you need something, give me a holler. Thank you for the opportunity to share my story. And, I hope that it helps with criminal justice reform.
That it helps to get somebody to, to stop before they do something stupid. Uh, and I do have a parolable sentence structure. And I see the parole board. Yeah, I see the parole board in June. I don't know, it's up to them. I'm just trying to heal and be the best man I can. Alright man, I appreciate it. Alright.
Have a good night, okay? Alright, you too. God bless you. Yep, see you, buh bye. Alright, buh bye. The caller has hung up.
On the next episode of Voices of a Killer.
I just flashed back to Vietnam. To me, this guy looked like a VC. He looked like he had black pajamas on with slant eyes. He was taking me to Hanoi Hills and gonna either kill me or Does he have a vest on? Yes. And you put all four in the vest? I put all four in the vest and one of them went through it.
You're responsible for basically putting a bullet through another police officer's head. I really wasn't thinking about it. I've seen so much of that over NOM, bodies, dead bodies, stuff. I just reacted and responded and away I went. Nothing really ever bothered me until I finally got straight off the ass and waited that evening.
That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Reginald for sharing his story with us today. His ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. If you want to listen to these episodes weeks in advance, you can now do so by joining our Patreon at patreon. com slash voices of a killer.
There, you will get access to raw interviews, unseen news coverage, and unique correspondence with the guests of Voices of a Killer. Head over to patreon. com slash. Josh, Voices of a Killer to support the podcast. Your support is what keeps us passionate about bringing these stories to you. A big shout out to Sonic Futures who handled the production, audio editing, music licensing, and promotion of this podcast.
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Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support, and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.