Ep 42 | James Love Part 2 Transcript

Ep 42 | James Love Part 2 

Transcript

Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listen, a discretion is advised.

The murders that you think he may be responsible of, you would be the, uh, victim's family that would be her granddaughter. He said, when the clock strikes midnight, if you're not down the stairs, I'm gonna shoot you. I mean, he murdered two kids six months later. What would the likelihood be if somebody else.

Coming into my grandmother's farmhouse and shooting her with his gun. There's no way that he thinks that he's going to be saved or whatever, if you can't come clean on everything, and that's where I'm going to try to handle it. I think it's time that you tell us what happened. I think you killed this person.

And I always said, yes, it's possible. I don't see how I could fire a rifle three times and not have gunpowder residue on my person. You are now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that. Have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison, you'll see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.

They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They are currently serving time for their murders and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter. Now, here are the voices of those who have killed.

Welcome back. The Voices of a Killer. In today's episode, we revisit the threads of a story that spans decades, diving deep into a sequel to one of our most compelling and tragic tales, the case of James Love. In episode 15, we heard from James Love himself, a man convicted of a horrific double murder of two year old Jeffrey Berger and 14 year old Sheila Curtright in 1974 in Lee's Summit, Missouri.

Today, we connect past to present as new allegations surface and a family seeks long overdue closure. Our journey begins with Gina Duncan, who believes Love's history of violence extends even further back to her own grandmother, Lavina McWilliams. In this episode, I speak to Gina to hear her side of why Jane's love, might just be her grandmother's killer.

And I follow up with James himself to try and discover the truth behind this tragic story. So sit tight and listen closely as we explore the connection between these two cases and seek answers in this episode of Voices of a Killer.

Hello. Hey, Gina, this is Toby. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm all right. You got time to talk? Are you busy? So, what prompted you to reach out to me? Did you listen to the podcast or had you just been searching his name or what? Well, I always check the Missouri search inmate just to make sure he's incarcerated because we are not considered, I don't know what they call it, like, um, victim's family because he was not accused in my grandmother's murder.

We don't find out if he's been released, if he's died. We don't get that information. So, just to clarify, the murders that you think he may be responsible of, you would be the victim's family? That would be her granddaughter. Wow. I never met her. She just happened before I was born. It happened in 74. I was born in 77.

And who's your grandmother? Levina McWilliams. L A U V I N A. Spell it again. L A U. Sorry, I get emotional talking about it. V I N A. I'm named after her. My name's Legita. She was Levina. Sorry. It's just crazy. Something like this would come up 50 years later while my mom has terminal lung cancer. When Gina reached out to me via Facebook, it wasn't just another message.

She was seeking answers about a family tragedy wrapped in a mystery. Gina, named after her grandmother, Lavina McWilliams, had been tracking an inmate and subject of Voices of a Killer, James Love, suspecting he might be linked to her grandmother's unsolved murder. It was personal, a story untold and unresolved, coming to light.

As a quick recap for listeners, James Love murdered two year old Jeffrey Berger and his teenage babysitter, Sheila Curtright. On that faithful evening, Jeffrey's parents were attending a New Year's Eve party, leaving their son in Sheila's care. James, known to be their neighbor, left the same party earlier in the night and made his way to the Berger residence, located in a duplex shared with his own living space.

What transpired next was a brutal and senseless act. James, heavily intoxicated, attacked both Sheila and Jeffrey. In a state of alcohol induced rage, he inflicted fatal injuries upon the babysitter and the toddler. This shocking double murder, carried out in cold blood, left an indelible mark on the small community and raised numerous questions about what could drive a seemingly normal individual to commit such a barbaric act.

The aftermath of this tragedy saw James Love arrested and eventually convicted for these murders, leading to his long term incarceration. Although he initially pled guilty to the murders, he eventually confessed. If you want the full story, you can go back to episode 15 after this episode. Nevertheless, this leads us today to the case at hand and the question that Gina has put forward for us.

Did James Love murder LaVina McWilliams? What's the first thing you remember about somebody saying that your grandmother had been murdered? Oh, my mom has been fanatical about it my whole life. We have weapons in every room. All the doors stayed locked. We were never allowed to go to the house on New Year's Eve.

I didn't get to babysit ever till I was probably 18 years old because you were going to get murdered if you babysat. And just everybody, I mean, my whole family talked about it, like my whole life. It was never something that just came up. And what town did you grow up in? Blue Springs, Lake Tapawingo.

Close to Blue Springs. Just one city over from Lee's Summit, where he was. Was your grandmother from Lee's Summit born and raised? I should know that, shouldn't I? I don't think so. I don't think they, I know there are country people from like Carrollton and Chillicothe. Down that way. That's where my grandpa was that night.

He was in Bosworth. Well, that's what my next question was. Was your grandmother was married? Yes. Yup. For a long time. And where was he at the time? He was in Bosworth, Missouri. He was down fishing with one of my uncles. And he was a drunk. My grandpa was a total drunk. And wasn't apparently the best husband.

And there's always been rumors flying about that. Some of the things that reference her being a spender and he was a saver. He said if she rented out the upstairs, she could keep the money from that. So she got that 100 a month from his rent and she could spend it however she wanted. She wanted nicer things than he wanted.

And he actually told the, in his interview, my grandpa, he lived till I was 12. So I did know him and he said, Oh no, I threatened to kill her a lot. And he's like, but she wasn't worth the bullet. That's the kind of the way he talked a little bit. And. He passed the polygraph and he wasn't even in town that weekend.

So he was an odd fella. He was an odd character. So I could see why some people would say, and I could even see why Jim would maybe say that because they did get an argument once over a parking spot. He parked somewhere where my grandpa didn't want him to park and they exchanged words, but my grandma died with a can of mace in her hand.

She wouldn't have had her mace out with my grandpa. She wasn't scared of my grandpa. Oh, wow. Yeah. My mom still has the can of mace. Yeah. So did your grandmother drink? No, she never drank or cursed or anything. Well, I'm trying to wonder if like she got into it with him and mouthed them or whatever while he was drinking.

Was she fiery? Do you know? Or what kind of person was she? I don't believe so. As far as I know, she was pretty quiet. 130 pounds, 5'7 is what the autopsy says anyway. Just pretty to herself. And how did James know her? He lived in her home. He lived in her home. He rented the upstairs of her farm home on Nolan Road.

Did your grandmother talk to people about him in general, any kind of way? As far as I know, he was pretty normal and my sister was 12 when my grandma was killed and they knew Jim. They played upstairs with Jim and like I said, he was in the Marine Corps and he worked quite a bit and he was a drinker, but all the kids were gone, so they rented out the upstairs and thought he's in the They didn't know about his past issues and Warrensburg and stuff, so.

Did anybody in the family ever talk about anything strange that James had ever did, or arguments that your grandmother was in? So many things after the fact, yes. One night my brother was 10 and my sister was 12, and he said, they were upstairs playing with him, and he said, when the clock strikes midnight, if you're not down the stairs, I'm gonna shoot you.

And they didn't think a thing of it. And then, a couple times my mom had been home alone with him or had went over to her mom's house to help do some canning and stuff and said she would turn around and he was oddly close to her face and took her breath away and she was like, wow, what a weirdo. This event has affected Gina's life from before the moment she was born.

Gina's childhood was overshadowed by the fear and caution stemming from her grandmother's tragic death. Lavina, a woman described as quiet and reserved, lived in a rural Missouri farm home. Where she rented the upstairs to James Love. Although he was perceived as just a normal tenant, disturbing recollections from Gina's family painted a different picture of James.

Her siblings remembered a chilling threat from James, and her mother recalled uncomfortable encounters with him. These snippets of James behavior unveiled a more menacing side, contrasting with the safety assumed from his military status. The lingering questions surrounding Levina's death continue to haunt Gina's family, leaving them in a state of Heightened alertness and fear that lasted for years.

The family's life took a dark turn when Lavina was found murdered. Shot by James rifle with a can of mace in her hand, signaling that a situation had occurred that prompted her to desperately defend her life. Gina's grandfather, who had a tumultuous relationship with Lavina, was away on the night of the murder and was cleared as a suspect.

The attention now turned to James. Who according to police reports supplied to us by Gina stated that he had been out of the apartment from 5. 30pm that day at first, a friend's house and then later a bar. He returned to the apartment at 1. 45am, in his own words, quote, highly intoxicated, unquote, to discover Levina in a pool of blood with his rifle on the floor by the door.

James then checked for a pulse of Levina and when he couldn't find one, he immediately phoned the police. During his interview with police, several inconsistencies were noticed by police. James had injuries to his eye and face. He had apparently taken his boots off when he returned home, and then walked around in blood on the floor before putting his boots back on, and when police gave him a polygraph test, he failed it.

Because of this, he was held for 23 days while a further investigation was conducted. And this is 1974 when a lot of DNA wasn't even brought up yet. Sure. And probably the investigation was really sloppy and then Do you know anything about the actual investigation that made them basically not pursue James?

From what I've read, it was a 15 minute time period where they couldn't pinpoint where he was. He had actually walked around in her blood and his socked feet and put his boots back on. The inside of his boots and his socks were covered in her blood. I reread the whole police report today and there were socked feet.

He was barefoot and had blood on his feet. So I can't find the part about the boots, but they scraped his feet and of course it had her blood on it and because he had walked over to check her or whatever. But, they never did find a pair of socks. There's a whole other report about searching the property for two shell casings and a pair of socks.

Because, well, and they're guessing on this, they're like, it appears to be some, with a material and not a bare foot. And so, I don't know if they actually know or not. They couldn't make any prints out, so they assumed he had socks on. But I cannot find the part about him putting the boots back on dirty.

But he did walk in her, he had to have walked in her blood to have checked her, because her blood was, I mean, all over the floor. But again, he lived in her home, and she was murdered with his rifle. He claimed somebody went upstairs, got his gun, and shot her. Wow. And then later, there's another page that's really fuzzy to read, but then he doesn't remember it exactly that way, and he wasn't sure if the door was locked or not, and he wasn't sure if the gun was in the floor, or if he put it on the table.

So it changed a little, in the second theory, once he had sobered up a little bit. So. I don't believe any of it really, but I mean, he murdered two kids six months later. What would the likelihood be of somebody else coming into my grandmother's farmhouse and shooting her with his gun? How did they let him go?

When you, when you talk about sloppy police work in the crime scene photos that my mom has taken, you can see where they have brought their gas station drinks in and set their drinks down on the kitchen counter. Like the police officers drink in a chocolate milk. Yeah. And that's, you know, way before they knew.

How to supportand all that stuff. Didn't he give a statement about it everywhere he went and everything? I mean, that's what that was. Right. It sounds like he was pretty close to, until he talked to his military people. And they probably told him to lawyer up and shut up. Right. And the thing is, is he really didn't lawyer up.

Is there any other times that you see this story where they're actually trying to pin not the murders that he's accused of, but these murders with your family on the news? No, it was pretty much dropped after that. If I didn't have these few articles, we probably wouldn't even, I mean, my mom knew he did it, my family knew he did it, but there was not a whole lot else they could do.

But if he had been locked up for them, those two kids would have never died. The investigation, to say the least, was less than thorough. Although DNA wasn't the main focus of detective work back in the 70s, the evidence at the crime scene was contaminated by sloppy police work. Not only this, but we have no mention that the alibis that James spoke about in the police report were ever followed up.

In the police report, he mentions going out with a fellow Marine Corps friend and talking to a bartender named Bob and a barmaid named Kathy. Surely, some follow up with that might have been able to clarify exactly where James was during the hours of 5. 30pm and 1. 45am on that fateful night. At the end of the day, James was let off due to insufficient evidence.

The charges were dropped and he went on with his life. However, the aftermath left Gina's family reeling. Her grandmother was the victim of a brutal, senseless crime that had no resolution and left her mother asking questions and pointing the finger at James, and for a pretty valid reason. Not only this, but little did anyone know that even more tragedy would strike the small town of Lee's Summit very soon.

Is Sheila and what's the little Jeffrey Berger. Are they buried in Lee's Summit? They're on find a grave. That's a good question. I'm not sure. Probably. Probably. But I'm My grandmother's in Colma, Missouri, down by where her family lived. It's near Chillicothe and Beaux Arts. Yeah. What happened with your grandfather whenever he found out?

I don't remember ever talking to him about it. He had remarried and stuff by the time I was old enough to I never did talk to him about it. I don't know why. He died when I was 12. What year were you born? 77. December of 77. When did your grandfather pass? Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in for another edition of the great legal tips of the day.

I'm your host, Zachary Petersen, and then we're going to get started on this week's episode of today's case. We'll talk about legal flow, we'll talk about coconut oil, we'll talk about how to make the most of a bottle of coconut oil, we'll talk about some of the most common kinds of products for cash with the most legal football, and then we'll start our video.

This is our first edition of the day. All right, guys, I'm gonna start off with our first title on this topic. Let's start with a little bit about what is coconut oil? One of the, my older uncles who was a worse drunk than my grandpa said, yeah, she was probably having an affair with him and something got out of hand, which my grandmother was actually 59.

The police report says 58. She was 59 and James was 24. I don't see that happening. I can't, like I said, I wasn't alive and I didn't know her, but I don't imagine why she would have. He made a pass at her and she freaked out and then it became a situation in there where he ended up killing her just like with Sheila.

Right, and there's a reason she had her mace. She was scared. Yeah. He came over. Exactly. It was a confrontation, obviously. Where did James go after this murder? Did he continue living in this house with your grandfather? That's when he moved. So that was just six months before he butchered the kids. That was in June of 74.

He killed the kids. Did he immediately move out or did he spend the next two weeks living in the same house as your grandfather? No, I'm pretty sure he went to, well, I believe he was held in jail for a certain amount of time until the grand jury said no. And then he moved in with his sister and then after that he went to go live with his mom and dad on Columbus Drive where he killed next door to Jeffrey's parents.

602 Columbus Drive. That's right behind Walmart and Lee's Summit. But no, I don't believe he ever came back into the house because the police report says he's not allowed back into the house until the scene is cleared. Whatnot. Jim Love actually tried to take a restraining order out on my mom. My mom completely went unhinged between June and December.

And I'm talking like almost got him fired, calling his work, showing up at his work, threatening his sister, trying to run him off the road. Like my mom literally lost her s*** after her mom was murdered. There's a whole nother police report against her and the police are like, I need you to step back, I need you to let us do this, and she's like, okay, I won't, and then literally the next day, he's back in the police department complaining about her again.

James? Yeah, he said that she would call all hours of the night and scream murder on the phone and hang up, which I totally believe. My mom's a little crazy like that. The reaction of Gina's family, particularly her mother, who was driven to the brink of despair by the lack of justice for LaVina, seemed justified.

Her actions driven by grief and frustration highlighted the family's firm belief in James's culpability. This belief is echoed in their certainty that James was behind the murder, despite the lack of concrete evidence to prove it in a court of law, the family's conviction, coupled with the eerie circumstances surrounding the proximity and time, the similar nature of the violent acts, the alcohol James consumed, and the fact that James was present at both the dresses suggests.

The these events might not be mere coincidence, but rather a harrowing link in the chain of the killer's path. The haunting question remains, was James Love's move to Columbus Drive, less than 5 miles away from Gina's grandmother's house, where the tragic deaths of Jeffrey and Sheila would occur a mere coincidence, or is there a deeper, more sinister link?

Thing that you sent me today is just mind blowing. That is like very much to where, I mean that there's just no way that it can't be him. Weird. Here's another thing is like as small of a small as a town that is, especially in the seventies, two murders in the town. You know what I mean? James and, and he, yeah.

And he lived next door to one and in one, he was in the other side of the duplex where the kids died, is where he lived, and he lived in her home. It would be a coincidence. I mean, I have to be, so the thing is with my podcast, I'm very much where I don't believe everything I hear and I'm cautious about news and like just pinning something on anybody, but boy this one's really right on the money it seems like.

You know, it's kind of funny because in here in about an hour I'm going to be talking to him. Oh, this is so intense. I just, I wouldn't ready for somebody to say, especially the fact that he was so sorry. Here's probably what you say seemed pretty normal. He probably is very normal. And whenever he gets a substance like alcohol in him, he completely changes, which is my theory because he snapped while he was drinking on the other two.

And my experience doing this, these substances. People think that because alcohol is legal, but it really does change some people to where they'll snap and do stuff. And he had been at the bar all night the night my grandmother was murdered. He came home from the bar. Yeah, and the night he killed the other two, the babysitter and the baby, he was drinking really heavily, like he had drank quite a bit.

And so that makes it easier. So what I need to do is I'm scheduled to talk with him at 8 p. m. tonight, and I'm going to just go back to building rapport, and I don't want you to take this wrong, James is an extremely friendly guy. Oh, no, sure. Yeah, I've heard. Yeah, very friendly, very sorry for what he did.

And I actually believe that he is sorry. I think he is one of those people, this is what my theory is, he is one of those people that whenever he gets a lot of alcohol in him, he really does turn into a complete murderous monster. I've seen it happen. Yes, and I've seen people through my life to where I don't know if you've ever run across these type of people but literally like it's a couple of sips and they're all of a sudden they're looking at you like they want to fight you and stuff and yeah and they'll say things like really outlandish like you know I'll kill you and you just really weird how people can drink alcohol but I think he's one of those people but anyway I'm going to try to talk to him.

I want your permission. Can I say your first name and say who you are? Absolutely. Yes. He won't know me. Like I said, I wasn't born, but he knows my sister Shelly and my brother Kevin. So I'm going to try to, like I said, corner him and build rapport. And then I'm going to try to, because he's very religious too, I'm really going to try to use that as leverage because There's no way that he thinks that if he's sincerely religious that he thinks he's going to be saved or whatever if he can't come clean on everything, and that's where I'm going to try to angle it.

Wow, I'm excited to hear what happens. Yeah, I mean, I have a feeling that he doesn't want to go through the anguish in prison of letting the public know and letting them open wounds when he's been trying to heal and be Christian. It's, I think it is gonna be very difficult form, but I'm gonna try to get in there and do it.

Oh, hey, I got a really important call I got coming in. Can I call you back a little bit? Okay, sure. Alright, absolutely. Take your time. Thank you. Yeah. bye-Bye.

As my call with Gina was interrupted, I was preparing myself for my upcoming interview with James. I find myself grappling with the complex mix of emotions and strategies. James, by all accounts, is a deeply religious man, someone who has undergone a significant transformation while incarcerated. He's expressed profound remorse for his past actions, and those who've interacted with him describe him as genuinely a nice guy.

Yet, there's this unsettling cloud of suspicion that still hangs over him. The unresolved case of Levina's murder, where all signs disturbingly point towards him. Navigating the interview will require a delicate balance. My aim is to build rapport with James, to understand the man he is today while probing into the shadows of his past.

Given James strong religious convictions, I plan to leverage this aspect to appeal to his sense of morality and redemption. If he truly seeks salvation and forgiveness in the eyes of his faith, then coming clean on all aspects of his past, not just the crimes he's been convicted for, is crucial. It's a fine line to walk, respecting the man he has become while not shying away from the tough questions about the man he once was.

This interview isn't just about seeking answers. It's about seeking closure for families that have been haunted by loss for far too long. We'll find out how that interview went after the break.

Hey, I just, I wanted to, uh, the, the guy was, it was a wrong number anyway. So I'm going to, I'll talk to him tonight. Are you up past nine? Are you want me to tell you? Absolutely. Definitely let you know what happens and then we'll go from there. Okay. Oh, I appreciate you so much. Thank you. No problem. Talk to you later.

Okay. Okay. Bye bye. Yeah. Bye bye.

Good evening, my brother. Hey, James. How's it going? Great, sir. Yeah. How you been? I'm too blessed for the best to be depressed. Yeah. You still in the, uh, the wing where you help out people and stuff? I'm in the B wing now, where Billy's at, but yes, this wing is also an ECU wing. Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, I'd just like to follow up with everybody, your episode came out really good.

I made sure and covered all the bases and let people hear who you are today, all the changes that you've been through, things like that. I thought it came out really well. I'm good, thank you. I wish that you could hear it. I wish you guys had access to it. Yeah, that's not one of the podcasts they let us have.

Yeah, you guys do have a tablet that has different stuff you can listen to though, right? Right. Yes, huh? Yeah. Do you use your tablet much? I use it every day. Yeah. Yeah. I like the Pando app and then I have several applications on the podcast I listen to. Yeah. How old are you now, James? I'll be 74 in January.

74. I can't remember if I'd asked you this, do you think that it's possible that the parole board would let you out, or are you pretty certain that they're not going to let you out? They can let me out anytime they want to let me out. Well, I mean, I know they can, because you go up for parole, obviously.

I'm asking, do you think that is something that will actually happen? That's up to God. I don't worry about that. I let God take care of that. When I've learned what I've needed to learn, done what I needed to do for God in here, he will open the door. Yeah. One of the quotes that you, I remember you saying is you went for the full mill deal.

I think you said where you, when I became a Christian, I told God I didn't want to, did not wanna be a holiday Christian. I didn't want jailhouse religion. I wanted. A full meal deal. In other words, I wanted it all. All or nothing. Yeah. And what does that entail whenever you're a Christian and you say that to God that you give yourself?

What does that entail? That means you let Him be in control of everything. You give your entire life to Him. Yeah, and do you feel like you've done that? It's been a struggle, of course, because it's not easy for anybody to turn everything off somebody else, but I am not the person today that I was 49 years ago.

I believe that. And that's not because of anything that Jim Love has done, it's because of what God has done. So, to give you a real good example of that, in October, the celly I had over in A Wing and I got into an argument that turned into him head butting me and me punching him. Well, that's a fight, when you get down to it, and we were rowed up for fighting, but there was no room in the hole for us, no room in the end, so to speak, so we were put in cells in the hospital overnight, and then released back to the wings.

He went back to A Wing and I sent him over to B Wing. When my property was, when my property was packed, I have a, a wall beard trimmer. It's, it's really good compared to what they sell now, it's, uh, like night and day difference. It was not packed in my property, but when I come up to the trash can that night to look for some peanut butter jars, there was my wall beard trimmer in the trash can B wing.

God is the only one that could have made that trash can contain my wall bearer trimmer right when I come up and look for it. Yeah. God's in control. God is the one that made me not do whole time. One that's made me still be able to be a DLA, that keep out on doing what I'm doing for Him, because it's what He wants me to do.

God's in control of my life. When I slip up, Yes, there's consequences for making mistakes. Yeah. Do you pray every day? Yes, I do. What about the Bible? Do you have one in your cell? I've got four different versions in my cell. Oh, wow. Do you actually read them? I've read all four versions at least a hundred times each, cover to cover.

Yeah. James, do you read portions of the Bible and actually try to adhere to what you read? Or do you try to live by what you read, in other words? Yes. I try to not just talk the talk but walk the walk. It's easier, it's easier to say you're a Christian. It's harder to walk and live it. How difficult is it?

How difficult is it? Well, I'm in prison where Christianity is not something that's popular. Homosexuality and dr*** are rampant. Those are the things that everybody celebrates too. And for somebody to shun all that is a whole different thing. Speaking to James again, I am immediately reminded of his religious convictions.

It's like he's living in a world within a world, a place where his faith guides him amidst the chaos and challenges of prison life. James, now in his 70s, spends his days in the B wing of the prison, a unit for enhanced care where he assists others, a far cry from the man he was decades ago. He talks about his daily routine with a calm resignation, mentioning his use of a tablet for podcasts, and his deep engagement with the Bible.

It's clear that religion isn't just a part of James life in prison, it's his lifeline. Yet, as I delve deeper into his story, I'm conscious of the looming question about LaVonna McWilliams murder. He emphasizes his commitment to living a true Christian life, not just in words, but in deeds. While he's respected and even admired for his spiritual journey and service in prison, the unresolved past still casts a long shadow.

As I prepare to speak with James, my goal is to navigate this delicate terrain with empathy and honesty, seeking answers that have eluded Gina and her family for so long. Well, here's something that I'm wanting to ask you about. The Bible, and teaches us, like you're saying, like you're talking about, like Homosexuality and dr*** and things like that.

And that's like popular subject matters that come up. But what about the subject matter of lying? Is that one that the Bible talks about? Of course. I mean, God clearly says, like, you're yes for yes, and you'll be no. Don't be a false witness. Yeah. Well, that's the one I saw, and I actually, so I attended a Christian university.

I'm not sure if I told you that. And, yeah, I graduated with my bachelor's degree from a Christian university, and they have us learn a lot of stuff about the Bible and Christianity, and I also took world religions, which is actually really a cool subject to learn about other religions as well. But one of them is the Bible talks about lying a lot like Exodus 23 one says you must not pass along false rumors You must not cooperate with evil people by lying on the witness stand And then Leviticus, uh, Do Not Deceive One Another, and then Leviticus 1911, You Shall Not Deal Falsely, You Shall Not Lie To One Another.

James, after I spoke to you, um, and your podcast aired, I had a lady reach out to me. Her name is Gina. And your crime was committed before Gina was born. But you and Gina have a link to each other in a way. Gina has a grandmother that is murdered that you found, that would be Lavina? Are you probably talking about my landlady?

Yeah. Okay, yeah. So, James, I'm not going to beat around the bush because I'm not that kind of guy. I'm very upfront. I think it's time that you tell us what happened, and I honestly, I think if you don't admit to it, I think you're lying to God. I think you killed this person. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I was struck enough that night, I don't know what happened, but I do know that he unbought a residue test from BAC negative, and I don't know how, I don't know how. So here's the deal, James, I really didn't want to talk about, like, the evidence and here and there. I tell people all the time, and I'm saying it right now on this podcast, I think you're a good guy.

I really do. I think you have a good heart. I don't think you're evil at all. I think alcohol is your downfall, and I hate that for you. I wish alcohol did not exist in your life, because I think that is exactly what killed Sheila and little Jeffrey. I don't think it was James Love. I think it was alcohol.

And I think the same thing happened with this lady, and I'm begging you, James. This lady, Gina, wants closure, man. You have nothing to lose. I'm asking you to please confess to this murder. And if I, if I felt in my heart that I'd done it, I would have confessed a long time ago. She broke down crying, trying to spell her grandmother's name.

That's how much, 50 years later, and I've read all the, she sent me all the police documents, and like, how the f*** did they not get you for this? It's such damning evidence, man. And you just said a while ago you were really drunk that night. You were really drunk, and that's whenever, because it's not James that does it, it's the alcohol.

It's not James, it's the alcohol. James, are you gonna go to your death bed with this lie? Like I said, if I believed in my heart that I had done this, this crime I would've confessed a long time ago. You're telling me that you, you don't remember doing? I do not remember. I, I, I do not remember doing anything to, uh, my landlord other than finding her, finding her on the kitchen floor.

Is it possible? So here's, here's what I wanna ask you, James. Stay with me here, because I've actually interviewed quite a few killers, and sometimes, when somebody rages, that's that little area of their life that goes black, and they don't f***in remember s***. And some of those people are locked up in the same camp as you.

They're good people, and they had one little bitty space of their life that they blacked out because of alcohol or dr***, and they did something. Could you have killed her? Is it possible? Of course it's possible. James, if you have any inclination that maybe you've done this, don't go to your grave with this, man.

That's unhealthy. It goes against everything in your religion. I'm asking you to just really give this some thought. That maybe, that night You, you hit that little spot where everything went black and you did something and then the James started sobering up, the loving person that we know, because I really do, I'm saying this for everybody here, I think you're a loving human being.

I think that whenever you drink alcohol, it turns you into a monster, like you said, and I hate that for you. I just wish you could remember, you don't remember though, or do you? No, I do not. No, I do not. She was really hurt and I caught me off guard, she called me and I can understand that, I can understand why she would be hurt.

I mean, look at how, listen to this, if you didn't kill her, then there's some other killer in Lee's Summit, I mean, like, and it's your rifle, I mean, come on, James. In my conversation with James, the tension is palpable. Here lies a crucial moment in the interview, where the pursuit of truth becomes the main focus.

The topic shifts to the biblical condemnations of lying, not as an accusation, but as a pathway to uncovering what really happened. It's an intricate dance of words, seeking to unravel the truth from a man whose outwardly shows signs of reform and remorse. However, beneath this surface, there remains an enigma tied to a night lost in the fog of intoxication.

The conversation takes a turn, examining the role of alcohol in transforming personalities. The suggestion that alcohol could have morphed James into a different person altogether isn't easily dismissed. His claim of not remembering the events of that fateful night opens up possibilities, including a blackout, a not uncommon occurrence among those who commit crimes under the influence.

And despite bringing up the coincidences that all point towards James, he denies any involvement in the crime. However, I was still reminded of Gina's anguish over her grandmother's unsolved murder, and with that in mind, I had one last appeal to James moral standing to see what he would say. That was an intense phone call with this lady.

I mean, she broke down crying. I cried with her. It was really sad. And the fact that you live there and you were drinking that day. It's your rifle. It's your house. I honestly, it's like I don't even really want to talk about evidence because everything fits so good and I hate to be that way because it really might not be you.

But man, James, like what the, is it possible that maybe you blacked out and did this? And I always said, yes, it's possible. I don't see how I could fire a rifle three times and not have gunpowder residue on my person. That, I don't understand that. Well, so, also, here's the thing about that, James, you could have not been the killer and had gunpowder residue, and I don't, just gunpowder residue.

You have a gun. You may have shifted something around in your living, in your bedroom where your gun was or some. Some rounds or what, I don't know, so we can flip this all kinds of different ways, but it just. I said I picked up my rifle out on the, I guess it would be what's called the back porch. Yes. So I handled the gun after it was fired.

With your convictions to your, to Christianity and stuff like that, I would hate to see you go to your grave, which may not be very much longer, James, with this. Information. There's people out there. Nothing's going to change for you. You're in prison. They just want closure. You know what I mean? But you're saying that I can't get you to say something that if you didn't do it you didn't do it, but I Can you blame me for not thinking you you did this s***?

I understand your position. I understand her position I don't blame you. You got your Possession of things that I don't have any clue about. All I know is they kicked me loose for lack of evidence. Yeah, there's literally articles that read information about you telling them all your steps to where you're getting there and all that and discovering her and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, I want a lawyer.

Just like with Sheila and Jeffrey, you just lawyered up right away. But this one you talked and then you were like, you know what, I want an attorney and you actually stood trial for this. I didn't stand trial. You didn't go to any kind of court for that? They didn't charge you? No. No, I just told you the charges were dropped for lack of evidence.

Oh, I thought y'all went to trial. No. Yeah, if you're innocent of this, I'm sorry, but goddamn, it just seems like everything It just fits you perfectly. The alcohol, you were drinking that day heavily. This is the time that you drank heavily. You admitted this. I understand. This is that time in your life where you were drinking and six months later, you killed two children.

So why wouldn't it be easy to kill an old lady that might've pissed you off? I understand what you're saying, Todd. I understand. I wish you'd quit using God's name in vain like that. Yeah, I can't make you talk any ways other than how you feel like talking. Yeah. But, and I understand your position, and if I felt in my heart that I was guilty, I would do what the lady wants, what other people have asked, but I don't know that I did it.

I'm not going to confess to something that I don't know that I did. I understand that. I mean, maybe what you can do is Really hypnotize yourself and think about it, because after I hang up the phone with you here in a few minutes, I have to call this lady and tell her that we don't know who killed her grandmother because you didn't admit to it.

She, Gina, the granddaughter of the person that we think you killed, she thinks you killed her, and so does her mother, who's dying of lung cancer, would like to know as well. Who also, I was told by Gina, sat through some of your court hearings, I don't know if it was actually trial, but it was some kind of hearings or whatever.

I don't know anything that she sat through because I never, I was never in court. Yeah, well, and then also you filed a protection order against her because she was bothering you so much because you killed her mother. Do you remember that? I don't remember filing a protection order against her. Yeah. I mean, this was 50 years ago, and also, this is a time, like you said, you were drinking heavily and you weren't put together like you should be because of alcohol, uh, it was my assumption.

James, I have to report back to Gina and let her know that you're not confessing to it. I don't remember doing it, uh, Todd. If I, like I told you, if I thought I had did this, then I would give the young lady closure. Like I said, maybe you can go to bed and talk to your creator, and if you feel like you want to call me back, I'm ready to talk, okay?

Alright. Alright, James. Have a good night. Yeah, God bless you. Alright, buh bye. In the end, James denies all involvement in the murder of LaVina McWilliams. Despite all of the efforts of Gina and myself, the amount of evidence presented to him, and the appeal to his religious views, James expressly states that he was not the killer.

Now, listener, this may leave you frustrated, however, despite all the coincidences, the evidence, the police reports. Which, by the way, you can check out on our Patreon. We seem to have to take James for his word. You may not like it, but the truth of the matter is that there simply isn't enough evidence for us to claim that James is the killer of LaVina McWilliams without a confession from him.

As I turned to call Gina back and inform her about what James said, I reminded myself why I do this podcast. Voices of a Killer tries to let inmates have their say, whether they're guilty or not guilty of a crime. At the end of the day, it's their stories and their voices that we hear on this podcast.

After the break, I call Gina to give her the news.

Hello? Hey Gina. So, he denied it. He did want to say, here's what I did once he denied it. I said, well, is it possible that maybe, because you do admit to drinking that night, is there an area that you blacked out and did this? And he said, anything's possible. The final thing that I could do is say, listen, try to.

Maybe hypnotize yourself. Think on it real hard. I said, people are, loved ones are involved. I said, a woman cried today, even though this happened 50 years ago. That's how much, how impactful this is. And I said, maybe you can call me and say, Hey, I did do this. And I also reiterated the fact that you don't want to go to your grave with such a lie after I read off about four or five Bible verses about lying and stuff like that, I tried my best, but what was your feel?

What did you feel? I think there's a part of me that this is probably a little bit of a fault. That whenever somebody tells me something, I want to believe them because I don't want to call somebody a liar, but I did. You'll hear the podcast aired. I call them a liar straight up. I said, there's, I said, I could be wrong, but I am thinking that you definitely did this.

And, and he goes, I understand how you feel. And, but I, to answer your question, I, I get really conflicted whenever people are saying, look, I didn't do it. You know what I mean? Sure. But when he doesn't have a whole lot to lose, like you said, why would he lie? Just trying to bring it up my best to get him to crack.

But yeah, I wish that, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you doing that, even if it didn't, I mean, I didn't expect him just to come clean. But like you said, maybe he will. Maybe he'll contact you, huh? I think it's very, think about it. I think it's very possible that like if he were to get sick maybe, and be to where he's like, Hey, when reading Bible, reading his Bible while he's dying or whatever, he could call me.

You never know. Right, right. So I, uh, I, I really do appreciate you reaching out to us. It's been, well, if there's anything else I can do or provide for you for your, your work that you do, please let me know. Yeah, there's, that's no problem. I appreciate it. And can I have your permission to put all this in the podcast or discussion?

Absolutely. Okay. Yes, for sure. All right, Jean, if you ever need anything, just holler at me, know where to contact me. That goes both ways. Thanks, Toby. Yep. Thanks. Bye bye. Bye bye.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer. Gabby, who actually took Jonas life? Who pulled the trigger and killed him? That man was my best friend. Do you still believe that he was an informant now? Kim just out of the blue said, Well, there's a way that we handle this. Situations like this. She was like in between both them guys.

Right. So you think that it was probably easy for Albert to do this because he wanted to get him out of the way of Gabriela? Yeah. I think he was in love with her. So it was basically zero planning and y'all killed him that night. Yeah. So how did you sleep that night? That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer.

Firstly, I want to thank Gina for sharing this story with us today. I'm sure her grandmother will be very proud for her standing up for justice her. The ability to be brave and coming forward with this information is much appreciated and Voices of a Killer will continue to assist her with this case.

Secondly, I want to thank James for being open to speaking about this case with us. His ability to do this is what makes this podcast so special. If you want to listen to these episodes weeks in advance, you can now do so by joining our Patreon at patreon. com slash voices of a killer. There you will get access to raw interviews, unseen news coverage.

And you need correspondence with the guests of Voices of a Killer. Head over to patreon. com slash Voices of a Killer to support the podcast. Your support is what keeps us passionate about bringing these stories to you. A big shout out to Sonic Futures, who handle the production, audio editing, music licensing, and promotion of this podcast.

If you want to hear more episodes like this one, make sure to visit our website at VoicesOfAKiller. com. There you can find previous episodes, transcripts, and additional information about the podcast. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support, and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.