Ep 48 | Michael Irby Transcript

Ep 48 | Michael Irby 

Transcript

Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listener discretion is advised. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

And this sounds kind of cheesy because you just don't sound like a killer. But, I still ended up getting charged with two counts of first degree m**der. When the crack infiltrated your family, it really changed the dynamic of just about everything. This is what the dr** dealers was doing to my family. So I guess I don't care.

I do it to somebody else's family now as well. My back window explode, my car explode, but I just keep driving up out of there. You went through a transition from being a person that carelessly takes somebody's life to, uh, somebody that you say that is not like that anymore. You are now listening to the podcast.

Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common. They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake.

Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They are currently serving time for their m**ders and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter now. Here are the voices of the people. Those Who Have Killed.

This week's episode takes us to a late night shooting in the year 2000 when two young men lost their lives in the parking lot of a local bar. The killer, who vanished into the Kansas City night, was later identified as 23 year old Michael Irby. Now, 24 years later, Michael invites us to revisit the day of his crime.

Michael's account gives us a poignant look into the systemic challenges that still plague black communities in the U. S. today. And we hear about the forces that steer young people away from their potential toward a life of crime. Now, nearly halfway through his time, Michael has served one of the longest sentences available and the years of incarceration have given him abundant time to reflect on the choices he made as a young man.

So join us as we hear Michael's insights about his crime and its consequences in this episode of Voices of a Killer. So Michael, you said you're from Kansas City? Yes, I am. Were you born and raised there? Yeah, I was born there and moved back and forth a few times to a different state. Yeah, every time you moved it was with your parents?

Yes. Were your parents together when you were a child? Yes, they were. How was your relationship with them and their relationship with themselves when you were a kid? I would like to say back then it was pretty nice. Yeah, how would you describe your childhood? Actually, well, it didn't start getting bad until after, like, 10, 11 years old.

Yeah, and what is getting bad? Abuse, dr** abuse, and stuff like that. Things of that nature. Did your parents abuse you? Yes, my father did, yes. Physically? Yes. What did he do? Oh man, just on the whim. He'll come in drunk, wake me and my brother up on a late night because a dish wasn't all the way clean the way he liked it to be clean.

Just get to going upside our heads and making us clean the whole, every dish in the house. Yeah, very strong parenting with, would kind of slap you all around? Yeah, very much so. Did he ever leave marks on you or hurt you physically? Ah, yeah, very much, especially when it came to Delft and, uh, extension cords and things like that.

Back then, we just called it a whoopin Sure. How many siblings did you have? I have two. I have an older brother and a younger sister. Did they get the abuse as well, or just you? Me and my older brother. My sister is five years younger than me, so she was still pretty young. Fairly real young and small. How did your mom take to that?

Did she also, uh, take part or did she just a witness? Well, she was getting abused as well, so it was pretty much like one of them things, lemme be the parent that I wanna be, or I'm gonna abuse you as well. Right. Was it just alcohol your dad got into or anything else? Well, it was alcohol at first, and then probably, let's say, 80, 87, somewhere around there, 86, 87, where the crack error hit, and then came the crack and all that type of stuff.

That's, that was definitely the crack error, and I think that's right where the time that Kansas City got hit, because It basically swept across the United States and anybody that was probably partaking in doing powder cocaine, they ran across that cheap stuff and then that was a wrap after that. And it really took hold of a lot of families and stuff like that.

It sounds like it, it got into yours. Did your mom do it too? Yes, it swept through the family at first, but at first, my father, he used to be a hustler. My mom used to work nine to five, and we had our home, our own space and everything like that. But when that came, it was like we living from family to family, couch to couch, things like that.

Michael, how old are you? At this present time, I'm 46. So I'm 44, and I was a child like you were in the 80s, and I'm from a small town in Louisiana, Louisiana. And, it swept across Louisiana just as bad as anywhere else, even the small towns. And of course, it affected a lot of people, I saw it first hand. So I can actually kind of understand how it went.

When the crack infiltrated your family, it really changed the dynamic of just about everything. What did your parents do for a living? How did they make their money? Like I say, my father, he was a hustler. He used to be out selling weed and whatever else he could get his hands on. Probably did some burglaries or things like that.

And my mother, she was a nine to five woman, went to work every day and came on home, made sure we was fed and clothed and in bed or things like that. Yeah. So your, your dad pretty much kind of did what he wanted and, and, and mom, uh, had the nine to five, but also kind of partook in the dr**s? Yeah. It, it was a situation like, okay, say she got the nine to five, then she brought her check home, so.

He took the check and did whatever he wanted to, and then gave her the crack along with him, and, yeah, the drinking the weed and so it, it became just a big mess. The crack epidemic hit the US hard. In the 1980s, dealers found that crack cocaine, the crystallized form of cocaine was potent, easy to use and cheap to produce, and the dr** took off in popularity across the country, ravaging families caught in the crosshairs of addiction.

Hardest hit. were poor African American communities in the crime ridden inner cities. Many sought an escape from crippling inequality and poverty, and dr** trafficking seemed like an attractive way to turn a good profit while supporting one's own addiction. The national response was swift and harsh.

Tough penalties and anti dr** campaigns led to mass incarceration. This also, however, incited mass panic across the country. Demonizing black communities without addressing the core issues that had caused the epidemic in the first place. The biggest victims of all this were the children born to parents of the crack generation.

Crack wreaked havoc on many families who were already struggling with unemployment or substance abuse issues. Kids suffered troubled childhoods of neglect, financial instability, and trauma. As their caregivers chase their next high by any means possible. In Kansas City, Michael too watched the disintegration of his once stable family under the grip of crack.

His father was physically abusive and prone to erratic drunken outbursts. Both parents succumbed to crack addiction and failed to give Michael the steady support structure a young child needs. And like many others caught in this unbreakable cycle, Michael eventually turned to the dr** trade himself, perpetuating the thing that had destroyed his family in the first place.

How'd you do in school, like going into junior high school and stuff like that? Did you get in trouble? Did you do bad grades? Yeah, junior high school, I was horrible. But, well, I can't say horrible, but I was more like a class clown looking for attention, I shall say. Because I would do majority of the work.

It was just that I wasn't getting the proper attention that I was seeking at home, so at school at times I wanted to be funny, I wanted people to say they liked me and things like that. I wanted, I wanted approval, so I used to act out in class and had class laughs and everything like that, so. It was, it was one of those type of situations I was saying earlier about the, the crack epidemic, even in my small town.

And it's funny because I could remember junior high having, I could tell looking back now, that probably some of the people I was around was having the same exact trouble. You were having, and slowly some of those people didn't finish high school or didn't even go after junior high. And some of the people that went to high school, they, they slowly dwindled away.

And I'm sure that dr**s crack had a lot to do, had a lot to do with that. Did you end up finishing high school? No, I did not. I didn't finish high school, but at the time when I dropped out of high school, I had already been kicked out of my mom's home at this point in time. Do you feel like you were kind of following in your father's footsteps at this point?

Did you start doing dr**s yet? At that time, no, I didn't, but I started selling them. Okay. I didn't do them due to the fact that So I've seen the devastation that it caused my family, so I didn't do it myself. You sold crack cocaine? Yes, so I sold crack cocaine, powder cocaine, marijuana, ecstasy tablets. And one of the things I kind of wonder about sometimes is there are people that like really are affected and have a really bad childhood because of dr**s and then they turn around and sell it.

Do you don't think about when you're selling it, it could go to some family that's raising a small child like you were and it's screwing that family up too? At the time, no I wasn't. I wasn't thinking about anything but the money. I don't know what to call it, but it was a situation of, this is what the dr** dealers was doing to my family, so I guess I don't care, I'd do it to somebody else's family now as well.

I, I believe that's how my thought pattern was at that point in time. Would you also agree that, that time and even some now, it's, it's also a culture. Something that's acceptable by large groups of people to sell dr**s, whether it hurts people or not. Very much so. Very much so. That's one of the things that I talk about now with guys as far as that I didn't have no choice or things like that.

But I'm like, So, everybody in your neighborhood didn't sell dr**s, there was people that actually got up and went to work every day, so. And I, it's funny you say that because literally last night I interviewed somebody in St. Louis that obviously down for m**der and I was asking him about his routes after school and he was getting into dr**s and gangs and I asked about his options and he was basically saying he didn't have any options but.

I really find that hard to believe, I think it is tougher for some others, uh, we'd be silly to think that it's not harder for a black man to get a job than a white man, but all in all, there are options and do you feel like, looking back, that you had options or you only could do that? Yeah. Very much so. I had options.

Multiple options. You know what I'm saying? I had teachers that was actually taking a liking to me due to the fact that I would do some of the work, I just wouldn't push myself all the way. So it was one of them self defeating situations to where the teacher would tell me like, Hey, You come out to class, I will help you do A, B, and C, as long as you chill out in school, like chill out in my classes, or disrupting my class, I will help you obtain the goal that you want to set, because I told them I wanted to be an architect.

So, they were invested in it. Yeah, and Michael, I was about to ask you that, did you have anything you aspired to be whenever you were younger? Yeah, I wanted to be an architect. How are you at math? I wasn't that bad. And that's what it was. It was my math teacher that actually took a liking to me, but he let it be known.

And what's your sentence? Your sentence to life without? No. Well, it might as well be, but I'm currently serving two consecutive life terms. So, now how's that feel to look back and you had things that you aspired to be and you took this route to where you're not going to have a chance to do anything? Man, Yeah, I feel like I wrecked so many opportunities that was staring me dead in my face that I didn't reach out and take advantage of.

To some extent, everybody is a product of the circumstances they were born into. The external forces of the world we live in can pressure us into compromising our morality and personal agency. Michael had first hand knowledge of how dr**s could wreck damage on families like his own. So it might be hard to understand why he, a young boy with bright potential, would become entangled in the dr** trade himself.

Michael's decision to sell dr**s was driven by a self defeating attitude. He sought an escape from the instability he had grown up in and was willing to prey on other families to do so. After all, Michael found himself in a culture where criminal activity had become normalized and where criminals were even idolized by young, impressionable kids.

Yet, reflecting on his past, Michael acknowledges that he had alternative options available to him. In particular, he remembers one math teacher who was prepared to invest time in helping Michael And encouraged him to seize the opportunities to advance that were in front of him. Perhaps there's another reality in which Michael leaped at the chance to pursue a better life.

He could have realized his dream of studying architecture, designing buildings with a career in city planning, and helping to rebuild derelict neighborhoods in the Kansas City area. Instead, like countless other young people in difficult circumstances, Michael's dreams and aspirations were left unfulfilled, and he opted instead Stead for a life of crime and street politics.

It was this criminal path that ultimately culminated in a life-changing mistake. One December evening in the year 2000. Michael. You're in prison for m**dering two people. You took the life of two people, which, it's such a strong thing. You removed somebody from being able to, from existence. How do you feel now about doing that?

Do you contemplate it a lot? Yeah, I feel like that's one of the worst mistakes I ever could have made. And, not just because of the census or the time that I have now, I didn't allow someone's children to have a loving father, you know what I'm saying? I didn't allow someone's family. To have a loving son or a loving nephew or things of that nature, that is something that I took upon myself to remove from these people who are still probably hurting and mourning to this day.

So, Michael, the victims, Antonio Wright and Retina Littlejohn, who are they to you? I would like to say they are In a weird way, they're like my driving force now, because there's no way I can bring these two men back to this earth and give them back to their family, their children, or anything of that nature.

However, the things that I'm doing now is to Attempt to make amends for the things that I've done as well as ensure that I would never do that again and also try to help other people that are dealing with situations, try to help them to where they won't get out there and do anything as callous as I did as taking someone's life away from this earth.

I understand. Your crime was in the year 2000, right? Yes. If I were to ask somebody that knew you, what type of person you were, what would they have told me in that year before your crime? I would say it depended on who that person was, because when I'm with my peers a certain way, and then when I'm with other people like females or family members, I'm a different person.

So, it was a situation like that, like my family, they'll be saying that I'm giving and loving, and my peers would be like, man, that dude crazy, he just don't give a f***. What were you doing the day that this crime happened, that early morning, what was that day like? You know what, I, at this present time, I can't even tell you.

What I was doing that, earlier that day, you know, the only thing from that day I remember is that night, that, the whole incident of that night. So what were you doing that night with these two gentlemen? Well, I was, I went to this club, Niecy's, and I went there, it was more like, it was more like a bar and grill, bar and lounge type situation.

How late at night was it? I got there probably like 10 o'clock at night. Were you by yourself? I arrived by myself and I seen someone there laying I seen him there so me and him started talking and having drinks it was two for one Tuesday so me and him was buying drinks back and forth for one another and things like that so Let me stop you real quick.

Sometimes and you probably agree with this Sometimes you can feel something and something's different or there's a vibe in the air where people are kind of angry in the room and you probably know this from prison, like when there's a fight about to go down, people kind of tense up a little bit around you and stuff like that.

Was there a feeling like that in the bar at this time? That's exactly what I was about to say. This crowd of guys came in, and like you say, like the whole energy shifted. Damn, what the hell going on here? However, when the energy shifted, the guy that I ended up greeting while I was there, him, And one of those guys get to arguing back and forth.

What caused that? Did one of y'all look at him too long? To this day, I have no idea what caused it. And Michael, are you packing at this time? Outside. I had one outside. You didn't have it on you? No, sir. When Michael parked at Meezy's restaurant in December 2000, the names Antonio Wright and Retino Littlejohn had no significance to him.

That night, however, those two names would become seared into Michael's memory and would determine his fate for the next 25 years. At that time in his life, Michael had two distinct sides to his personality, each reserved for a different context. With his immediate family, he was loving and generous, willing to show softness and vulnerability.

But in circles with his peers, Michael hid behind a tough guy persona. He projected an image of somebody you don't want to mess with. Cold, steely, and capable of violence. This was the alias he used on the streets, and it was this version of Michael that entered the doors of Niecy's around 10 p. m. on December 20th.

Niecy's is a family run diner and bar in South Kansas City that specializes in home style soul food. That night, a two for one drink special was running. And the diner was packed and buzzing with energy. Early on, Michael met up with a friend and shared drinks at the bar. However, when a crowd of 6 8 men entered the room, the atmosphere immediately soured.

Michael recalls the tense and uneasy feeling he sensed around their presence, and he anticipated that they would spell trouble. At some point, though Michael can't pinpoint the cause of the argument, his friend ended up in a scuffle with the group.

And the possibility that the young men were also armed, the night out had quickly turned volatile. More on that after the break.

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So Michael, your buddy that you're with kind of gets in the words with one of these guys or all of them in the group? Well, it was just one of them. They start arguing back and forth. So I don't know. Maybe it was a situation of See, I'm looking at one another too long, and what will be the dominant male?

Were the words getting like pretty, pretty intense, I'll kill you, or you want to go outside, or what was the words like? More of a what the f*** you looking at, you know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. Okay, so what did you do whenever this started happening? So I grabbed a dude that I was with, I took him in the bathroom, hey, what are you looking at, man, we just here to chill, we just here to kick back, chill, have drinks, you know, And enjoy the night.

That's around 5 50 bells and that's it. Did that other crowd notice you trying to simmer everything down? Probably not at that time. Yeah. They seen me take them off. What was your friend's reaction to you telling him to chill out? Nah, he was, he was like, you right. No problem. Okay. I'm tripping. However, Y'all leave the bathroom.

Yeah, however, yes, when we left, when we came back out, I tripped out. So we come back. Yeah, it was like the roles reversed. We come, we come back out and the guys is almost like instant eye contact and I switched on them, you know what I'm saying? So I get to asking him, what the f*** you looking at? And all this type of stuff.

So my partner grabbed me like, hey man, I thought we was chillin I say, all right, cool, no problem. And then what happened? So from there, we end up going to the bar to grab some more drinks, like, man, bumpy, let's get some drinks and calm down and chill. How many of them were there? I would like to say that I actually know there was with them probably between six and eight.

And there was just two of y'all? Yeah. Yeah. So, Michael, you and we both know that those situations, man, people got guns on them. Especially at bars and clubs and stuff like that. It's just, and you know that especially it's probably people that are into doing dr**s and selling it and stuff like that. It's just dangerous, man.

Get killed just by mouthing off. Yeah. I'll put it like this. Back in that time. It took a little more than it does now, because I was 23 at that time, so 23 years ago, the temperament of the people wasn't as, as polluted with the I don't give a F attitude. You, like it is nowadays to where you got rolling shootouts and things like that all over the place.

So Michael, after y'all went to the bar and had your, got the drink, whatever, what was the next step after that? Well, the next thing after that, okay, I'm turned one way, talking to some females. And the next thing I know, I hear a, a glass breaking. So I turned around and I see the guy that was with me. I see him getting lifted up by security and getting pulled out the side door.

And then the one guy who he got hit with a glass, he got smacked with a glass. So, he's staring at me like, in this shocked, trance look, like, why did you hit me? I'm like, motherf***er, I didn't hit you. Can you honestly say you didn't? Yes, very much so. Okay. It was the PD. So, so what happened with that? So, the security see us talking back and forth, so they come tell me, hey, you gotta leave.

So I'm like, okay, cool, cool, no problem. I leave. I tell the females, I'm like, hey, what's up? Come outside with me. I got a lead. Come on out. So, I go outside. I go to my car. Grab me a black smile, light it up, sit there for a minute. Do you feel like because the, you say the females were there, because the girls were there, that, that kind of made even more wanting you to show yourself?

It coulda. Of course, everybody wanna show off. Yeah, it could've. Of course, everybody want to show off that they're the big man in town when the females are around. Tensions ran high at Nisi's restaurant on the night of Michael's crime. Although he had initially been the one to diffuse his friend's temper, Michael himself wound up in a confrontation with the group who had entered earlier in the night.

With alcohol flowing loosely, hot blood, and rash tempers, the young men were riled up and quick to start a fight. At one point, a glass was smashed over somebody, and in the confusion that followed, Michael was wrongfully pointed out as the culprit. Having had enough of all the trouble that evening, the security guard kicked Michael out of Nisi's restaurant.

And into the cold night outside. The altercation had been caused by a mix of alcohol, pride, and bravado as Michael tried to impress the girls at the bar. And now, thrust outside after leaving the diner, Michael was left agitated and frazzled, his mind still on high alert. But instead of leaving and heading home, Michael made the critical decision to loiter outside instead as he waited for the girls he had met at the bar to join him.

When you get to the car, you light up a cigarette. Is the girl still with you? Yeah, I light up a black mouth. They have yet to come outside. They have yet to come outside. Now, here's my foolishness. By even just staying around, when the security guard told me to leave, I should have just went outside, got in my car and leave.

Let me stop you right here. Let me ask you something. Whenever you did go out there and you kind of just sat in the car, did you get your gun out and kind of make sure that it was one and the round and all that stuff? No. Yes. Well, I didn't make sure it went one in the head because I already knew it was.

However, that's when I grabbed my gun and sat there for a minute. Then I stepped out my car to just hang out and meal about so the females would see me when they come outside. But that didn't happen. So you waited there and these guys came out? You see, I never seen them actually exit the building. They just showed up around the car?

This is what happened. Okay, I'm milling about. I'm standing out in front of the club or in front of the lounge. Now, the lounge has an awning in front of the front door with lights all on it, you know, for people to pull up, drop people off, or whatever the case may be. But there's a car sitting in front of the building.

Now, the car begins to take off. The driver looks in the rearview mirror. He spots me saying something to the passenger, so the passenger reaches up under his seat. And the driver put the car in reverse and they back up towards me. At that time, I clutched my gun. You were basically behind them while they were backing up?

Yes. Well, I'm behind them to the side on the driver's side. And you pulled, you picked your gun up and pointed it at them? When they got right in front of me, when they got even to me, the passenger, had thrown his gun across the driver, pointing it at me. So he actually pointed his gun at you? Yes. Do you have your gun picked up yet?

Or when you saw that you picked it up? Pulled it up, I mean? Yeah, I'm standing outside. I got it inside my coat, my jacket. Gotcha. So when he pointed the gun at me, that's when I pulled my gun from my coat and opened fire on their vehicle. At that point in time, I didn't know where I hit them at. I was just firing away.

At that time, I had a Tec 9 with 30 rounds in the clip. It was a Tec 9 with 30 rounds. Did you stand stationary in one spot and fire? No, I was back and forth almost, like, sprinting the whole car. Yeah, how many, did you go through the whole clip? I'm not even sure, cause after a while, the car shot backwards, the passenger door flew open, and the car hit another car back.

In the driveway, not the driveway, but the parking lot. So I come out of my trance or whatnot and run to my car, jump in it and take off. And as I'm leaving, I hear more shots and my back window explode, my tire explode, but I just keep driving up out of there. Those people that were. In the car that pointed the gun, that was Antonio Wright and Ritina Littlejohn?

Yes, sir. Which one was in the passenger seat? I have no idea. m**der can take on many forms, from a highly planned premeditated killing to an unintentional act of recklessness. Michael's is a story of an impulsive act of violence made in the heat of a moment against two strangers he had never met. By that point in the night, Michael had a few drinks.

Still on edge from the altercation earlier in the diner, he hid his gun in his coat in preparation for another tussle with the group he'd met inside. Outside of Nisi's diner, he waited for the girls inside to come out, but they didn't emerge. Instead, Michael noticed a suspicious car hovering in front of the restaurant.

Eyes flashed in the rear view mirror, and the driver hitched into reverse towards where Michael was standing. Through the open window that pulled up next to him, Michael saw that one of the men was pointing a gun straight at him. Staring down the barrel of a gun, Michael thought, triggered a fight or flight response in Michael.

One bullet away from death, self preservation kicked in. Instinctively, Michael opened fire on the car, shooting bullets across the side body and the doors. The car shot backward and crashed into another car, but Michael didn't wait to find out anymore. He fled the scene, while gunshots shattered his window and blew a tire.

The scene Michael describes is chaotic. It's likely that he's relived the events of that night many times in his memory by now, and the passage of time may have worn away a few details. But later, Michael would find out the names of the two occupants of the car, Antonio Wright and Rottino Littlejohn.

Michael had felt that his life was in danger. In a matter of seconds, two strangers were dead, killed at the end of a long and explosive night out. I'll be honest with you, Michael. When I talk to you, you don't sound like a, and this sounds kind of cheesy because what does a killer sound like, but you just don't sound like a killer.

Yeah, that's, uh, my, my partner's home, you know, at one point in time. Yeah. I mean, you're in prison for gunning down two people in a parking lot. Like shooting them up, you know what I mean? That's crazy. What were you thinking whenever you did that? The only thing on my mind was get these guys up off of me and.

Home. So after you basically got in this alter altercation and, and shot these guys, how long after that were you approached by the police? Okay. The incident, the, the m**ders happened on December 20th, going into the 21st, and I got, actually got. On March 1st of 2001. So how far was that? I couldn't understand you.

Oh, about three months later, two to three months later. Gotcha. What did you do? Were you basically in hiding in that time? Kind of. I would move around here and there after darkness fell. So yeah, I was in hiding. Moving on the low and not going around normal places that I usually went around. Did you see?

Kept my distance from see places I thought they would be looking for me yet. Sure. And did you see anything on the news about it or anything like that in those months? No. Did you hear any friends or family members talking about it? Like they might've knew, known him? No. How did the police get you? Did they knock on your door?

SWAT team? What was it? Note, they got me for, uh, an unrelated bench warrant. Gotcha. Well, the bondsman, the bounty hunters, they got me for an unrelated bench warrant. So once they took me downtown to re book me, the booking officer told them that I had a warrant out for questioning and the m**derers of Antonio, uh, Wright and the Latino little John.

Did you break court right away or did you lie to him? Well, I lied for a second. But after that, it's bad. How did they know it was you? My car, as well as the guy I was with. Once he hit the other guy with the glass, he ended up severing like a vein or something in his hand. And he ended up passing out once he got home.

And his woman called the police, not knowing what was going on. And so They went and got him and understood that he was in an altercation and then they talked to him and he told them that I was with him and I was the one that bought the car from him and so it came right back to me. Were you able to use that in court that they pointed the gun at you?

How'd that go over? Well, all the way from the jump, all the way from my interrogation on I've been telling the detectives and everything like that, hey, they pointed a gun at me, I pulled my gun and opened fire on the vehicle, but I still ended up getting charged with Two counts of first degree m**der. Do they find a gun on the scene from them?

Not from them. As they said, they found a gun in another car that was near the scene, but they don't believe it was the gun that they had due to the fact that there was no blast fragments or anything like that on. So you're really the only one that said they have a gun and they never found one that they were able to admit into court, basically.

Yes. Yeah. That changes everything for you. Yeah. Very much so. Because your story is different than what's let, because it probably wasn't even admitted into court. Was it? No. Not at all. They pretty much just, it was my statement against me. You think there's a way that maybe he didn't have a gun and the state of mind you're in made you think that it was a gun?

Is that possible? I don't doubt that that's a possibility due to the fact that the security guard had come to find out it was a security guard. that shot my car up and he was saying that I had a gun in my hand when I drove past him. So he said he took that as a sign of danger and opened fire on my vehicle.

So the security guard actually shot at your vehicle? Yes, that's who shot my back window out and my back tire out, the security guard. Wow. And I know for a fact that I didn't have a gun in my hand because it was laying on the passenger seat. Well, here's what I'll tell you. The security guard is there probably as a neutral party just to protect everything and for some reason Him shooting at you and him seeing how everything goes down that he believes You're the the perpetrator and everything and not you know somebody that's possibly fleeing or whatever because somebody shot at you I don't know, but That's pretty big.

Those two things, the fact that they can't find a gun that you said was used in a security guard is probably completely against you, right? Did he go to, did he stand trial as a witness? Well, not as a witness, because I took a plea. Uh, well his, he, he probably did a statement about what happened is what I'm saying, cause yeah, you took a plea.

Yes, very much so. A statement as well as a video deposition. Michael spent the next three months in hiding, laying low to avoid police. But in March 2001, Michael was taken into custody for an unrelated bench warrant, and here, he was finally charged with the two m**ders. Police had been quick to identify Michael as the killer.

The car leaving the scene was traced back to Michael. The man inside Niecy's who had been assaulted with the glass implicated Michael to the police, and the security guard who tailed Michael later made a statement against him. From the security guard's perspective, Michael was a troublemaker, but who had stirred up a fight in the restaurant earlier that evening and was therefore, likely, the initiator of the conflict.

Unfortunately for Michael, his claim that he was acting in self defense faced challenges. The actual firearm was never located at the crime scene, leaving police with only Michael's account to trust. Not only this, but the victims were shot a total of 14 times. Memory in traumatic situations is notoriously unreliable, and Michael himself concedes that he could have misremembered events, painting the gun on, in a later memory.

Ultimately, Michael pled guilty to two counts of first degree m**der, forgoing a trial, and received two life sentences. What strikes me as we hear Michael tell his story, is that he's not the only one. is that he doesn't sound like a stereotypical killer. While society is quick to villainize criminals, Michael is just an ordinary man who was born into a life of limited opportunities where crime was an attractive escape route.

It's a story of untapped potential, and a man who had more to offer the world. And I wonder how Michael reflects on the circumstances that led him to prison today. After the break, we'll We'll hear Michael's thoughts on all this.

So these victims, did you, you do, you learn a lot about your victims Once you this, all this happened, I've heard whenever people have a m**der victim, they start to learn a lot about 'em. Well, I learned that they had criminal history. They were in the streets and things like that. But I also learned they were fathers.

They were pretty much involved with their family as I was with mine. So we were the same people. It's funny you say that because I was going to say it could have been so easily, Michael, for one of your, one of your homies to introduce you to one of those guys. Hey, this is my buddy, lives a couple miles up the street or whatever.

We all into the same s*** and been friends with him, but the fact that didn't happen, they're estranged, they're a stranger, and now they're an enemy if any little thing happens. Which also brings me to another question, is why does the black community, especially black men, kill each other so much? I believe it's out of fear.

We strongly fear one another. Why we fear one another, I have absolutely no idea. We're fearful of one another, we're jealous of one another, we're envious of one another. Every time you look up, someone is saying something bad about another black individual when it comes to us. There is hardly ever us trying to lift each other up, like people be telling me so much stuff about what's going on social media or the things you see on reality TV shows or things like that.

I'll be like, man, this is ridiculous. It's like, why is this? Why do we? Pretty much hating one another so much, so in actuality, it's us hating ourselves because we are a reflection of each other. Whenever I started to get into calling people down for m**der, I have an endless supply of people to talk to, Michael.

Endless. Endless. Endless. Right. I don't doubt it one bit. I mean, if I go, I haven't even really left Missouri much because there's no need to. It's just endless right now. But like, I googled m**ders in Chicago and it's, there's 200 something m**ders a year. More, I don't know, it's like, it's just, it's crazy, and it's just a big question of why, and it's, you kind of philosophize on that for a second.

Do you feel like you're that person still? Absolutely not. And you went through a transition from being a person that carelessly takes somebody's life to somebody that you say that is not like that anymore. How does that transition happen? My transitions have been During the altercation that I had here on the yard, it was a situation of one of our gang member brothers that had, uh, became homosexual.

So, we had told him like, hey, you need to get them marks up off of you or check in. He ended up Real quick, for people that don't know, checking in is basically where you ask for, for safety and they put you in a different, in the hole or some other housing unit so you're away from everybody else. So, later on he comes back with a baseball bat, we out on the softball field, so he comes back with a baseball bat, swinging it all crazy and everything like that, and I'm looking at this, damn, this is crazy because the guys that I was with, they took off running, well one of them took off running, and the other one ended up getting hit with the bat.

So, I end up chasing the guy down the head of that, chase him down, the police, the COs came and chased us down and sprayed us down and everything like that. So, I'm down in the hole, and I'm thinking, what if something Really drastically happened to me and these people, this administration or things like that, have to call and tell my mother or my emergency contact that hey, Mike has been seriously injured or Mike has been killed because of a color or because of a sore that does not belong to him.

So, I got to thinking about that real deep and real hard, like, the hell with it. It's not worth it anymore. And at this time, and this was only 10 years ago. So, this is damn Yeah, and what's crazy is whenever you talked about your mom getting that phone call of you being injured or killed, the first thing I thought of is The victims in your case, their family had to get that phone call saying that they're killed.

It's pretty deep, very much. Um, yeah. So, have you basically tried to, from that point on, take a direction to where you're, you don't partake in criminal activity, or what? Very much so. From that point on, once I got myself out of the hole, I was like, let me take off these clothes that people have always put on, that these, that people have put on me.

So, allow me to show the world my true self. Allow me to show the world. The person that my mother, no, yeah, the person that my auntie. Because my mother and auntie, my support system, they don't know Icy Mike as everybody calls me. They don't know that person. That's a stranger to them. So, allow me to show the entire world exactly who I am, what I want to be, and how great I can be at being myself.

According to a 2021 study by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, better known as the CDC, Homicide is the leading cause of death in young African Americans between the ages of 10 and 24. Day to day violence is pervasive among Black men, who are both victims and perpetrators of violent acts.

Partly, the media fuels this negative stereotype. TV shows and music videos perpetuate the idea that Black men are hyper aggressive and lack representation of healthy, uplifting relationships between Black men. Bleak economic prospects and feelings of disempowerment can also cause black men to lash out in violent ways, creating a self feeding culture of violence where crime is normalized.

Michael has an interesting perspective on this issue. He links the high rates of violence among black men to low self esteem, which plays out as jealousy and mistrust, and a fear of being perceived as weak by others. Now, at 46, Michael has distanced himself from the dr** fueled lifestyle he was raised in from an early age.

One incident in prison led to a pivotal transformation in Michael's life. An altercation with another inmate led to Michael's revelation that the ruthless tough guy persona he had created could one day cause his own premature death. Now Michael has sought self-acceptance, shedding the icy mike persona he created for others, and allowing others to see the genuine side of himself that he once reserved only for his family members.

I wonder what Michael's math teacher who once offered him a lifeline to pursue a better life would think of Michael's transformation. Michael has finally made the choice he was afraid to back then to live up to his true potential within prison walls. And he has effectively become the person young Michael might have needed as a role model.

In our conversation, Michael mentions joining a gang in his early years in prison. But nearly 25 years into his sentence, does his life in prison now reflect his new outlook on life? How's prison for you? Are you, is it pretty stressful or you get around pretty good? I get around pretty good. I got a job in video production.

I'm involved and alone. Quite a few, uh, organizations, well, good organizations, I shall say, and I do, do some good reading and try to exercise here and there when I fit it in, but hey, I feel like this. I, I did the crime, I did that, so now I have to do the time, so there, there's no need for me to be sitting around complaining and bitching and moaning.

The food is horrible. They're not letting me out for reg. Who gives a damn? The guy's lives I took, they're not able to do any of that. So, at this point in time, hey, I've come to terms with the crime and the punishment. So, I'm doing it. Are you in a gang right now? No, sir. I used to be. You still have a relationship with your mother?

Yes. Yes, I do. It's wild because our relationship is stronger than it's ever been on the streets. Does she come visit you? Probably two to three times a year when I'll get a full visit. I'm like, I don't want to put too much stress on her as far as just So, just a regular visit, kind of like, just, we just come full visit time, get to bring some food up, and we just sit there and eat and talk and have a great conversation.

So, do you have any kind of parole hearings? Because you got a really big sentence, what was your sentence again? Two consecutive life sentences. My first available parole hearing will be March of 2045. Do you think the odds are stacked against you that you will, indeed, die in prison? Yeah, there's fact against me, yeah.

Something that I know that I see it over and over again that inmates have a lot of hope. I talk to people that are sentenced to life without all the time and they're like they feel like they're going to get out and I don't think that's how it works, especially after the appeals are exhausted because of hope.

You just have hope. And I think that if you don't have hope, like you'd lose your mind. I don't know. But I think something really big is in that. Hope it took you a while to answer that, but it's like a basic question if you, unless you think you're going to live to be. I mean, so you, let's see, how old are you right now?

46? Right now I'm 46. Yeah, and you said, when's your parole date? I'll be 45, so that'll be, I will be 68 years old at that time. And that's just eligible though, right? Not that you actually get out, just eligible to go up for parole, right? Yes, very much so. And do you think that, do you see people, like, get out after you see it over and over again?

Are there, like, people that come up to their first parole date and do they get out? Yes, for the most part. Especially, see, me, I have 85 percent to do on both of my lifetimes. Right, which is like, what, around 23 and a half years each? Yes. So, majority of the time, when you do the 85% Majority of the time, they will parole you, but, like I say, I'll be 68 years old at that point in time.

What are they paroling me out to, though? Well, it's going to be a different world than 2000, I'll tell you that, if you do get out. An extremely different world. Uh, so, you know, the, since the crack epidemic in the 80s, there hasn't really been much changed except, you know,

In 2000, just half of U. S. homes had the internet, Facebook was unheard of, and people still rented VHS tapes and listened to Walkmans. If Michael is released from prison in 20 years time, he will step out into a totally different world to the one he once knew, and at 68 years old. He will face a sharp learning curve as he readjusts to a new way of life.

Michael will first face the parole board in 2045. However, the law clearly states that parole is not a guaranteed right, but a privilege that convicts must earn. When the board considers Michael's case, they will have to weigh up the risks of Michael re offending upon his release. Alongside the positive contributions he's made while in prison.

One major condition of parole is the recognition and remorse for one's crime. And in this regard, Michael may fare well. Michael's attitude to his time in jail has been to accept the consequences of his actions. Throughout our interview, he shows a great deal of empathy for the two men that he killed, and the families who lost fathers or brothers.

He's drawn haunting parallels between their lives and his own. For And use them as a driving force on his own path to redemption, all of which could stand in his favor when he's asked to answer for his time in prison. Now that he's processed his past, Michael has also found himself in a position where he can counsel other young black men who are down the destructive path Michael once followed.

What advice could Michael offer somebody like that, I wondered, that could prevent crimes like his own? So Michael, we talked about how you were back then, and obviously you're different now. There's a lot of other young black men out there that are doing what you were doing, and in very, very high numbers, and I don't think anything you could say would ever Really change that, but maybe if somebody heard it and what would you say?

I mean, cause you know that they're like, this has got to be, this is how it's got to be. What would you say to that? My thing is, I would say to them, don't be so quick to give up on yourself. You know what I'm saying? Do what you feel is right in your heart because you'll be criticized either way. Whether you're doing, somebody's going to have something to say about what you're doing regardless.

So, do the right thing. Do the right thing. Give yourself a chance and an opportunity to live and not to take anyone else's life so they can live and be the best damn that they can be. Do you think that young black men have pressure from other young black men about trying to do things that are right?

Yes, I do. But due to the fact that they feel like, okay, we're all out here gangbanging, selling dr**s, robbing, stealing, carjacking, whatever the case may be. We're all out here, so at this point in time in this neighborhood, We are the norm. Now you going against what we have as the norm. This is what has been created law in this neighborhood now.

So now you are going against this, which makes you an outsider now. So do you wanna be an outsider and have us target you? Or do you wanna be with us and help us target someone else? And so some of 'em fall victim to their pressure of, hey. They, I don't wanna be targeted. Well, Michael, I hope everything works out for you.

I appreciate you reaching out. It sucks that you made the wrong decision at that time, but it's just unfortunate. It sounds like you are a different person. Like I said, you just don't really sound like a killer, but you are so, so. If you ever need anything, gimme a holler. All right. Okay. No problem. No problem.

Thank you. Thank you for taking the time out to just listen to me, man. Yep, no problem man. Take it easy. Okay. Alright, no problem. Enjoy. Enjoy. All right, see you. Bye-Bye.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer, too bad you can't do that in life. You know, I sure will hit the rewinding button and go a different route, but you know, things happen. I just feel I didn't give a s*** at the time, cause you know, I had a bad attitude. I was just mad at the world back then, cause nothing was going right.

Couldn't get no job. To tell you the truth, it was kinda like this Johnny Cash song was stuck in my head. Shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. You definitely killed him, and it was definitely in cold blood. Most of you, I think, are sorry for what you did, and I give you that opportunity. It destroyed both my lives.

It definitely did. I'll be honest.

That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Michael for sharing his story with us today. His ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. If you want to listen to these episodes weeks in advance, you can now do so by joining our Patreon at patreon. com slash voices of a killer.

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Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.