Ep 51 | WILLIAM DYER PART 2 Transcript

Ep 51 | William Dyer Part 2 Transcript

Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listener discretion is advised.

Yeah. It's getting, it gets worse. My stupid ass is running around the house, thinking we've gotta make this look like a robbery. So I tried to shoot her and nothing happened. See, this is what's going through my mind. It's, it's, it, it's, it's a teenage kid on a thrill kill. That's what it was. I thought it was gonna be something cool and exciting to do and it wasn't.

It was a nightmare. Actually he handed me the gun back and, what I, I ended up shooting Steve some more because he wasn't dead. Jesus man. I know. How are you doing this at 14 years old? At that point, I wanted everything over. I wished I would have never started. It was instant regret, but then I felt like I couldn't stop.

You are now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that, although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.

They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They are currently serving time for their murders and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter now. Here are the voices of those who have killed.

Welcome back to Voices of a Killer and to Part 2 of William Dyer's story, better known as Billy. If you haven't listened to Part 1 of this story, head back to that one so you don't miss out. Last week, we left the story at the point where Billy had committed the first shooting and he ran outside of the Swifts' house to ask Ray Richardson to reload his gun.

Today, we'll conclude this tragic and horrifying story direct from the source as Billy Dyer speaks to us from behind bars on this episode of Voices of a Killer.

So what about Stacey? Well, okay. I just stopped because I didn't know how far you wanted me to go. Well, I ran out of the house and keep in mind Tonya's still alive too at this point, but I went and I got Ray. Cause Ray had drove the car and he was parked, I don't know, maybe a hundred yards away

behind some trees. So you go get Ray. Whenever you go to Ray, did you tell him all of what you just did or you just say, "Hey, I need help." I told him there's problems in the house. Yeah. I said two were down. I said, "The gun's out of bullets. I need help." Yeah. What did he say? And... he knew. He knew. I think he probably heard the shots.

Yeah. He ended up driving, he ended up pulling the car over into the trailer. There was the victims' house, a small church, and then the trailer. And that was the only three buildings on top of this hill. The people in the trailer weren't at home. He pulled in behind their house. We walked behind this little church. It was just a little bitty summertime Baptist church, came up on the back corner where Greg was laying, out in the backyard.

What did Ray say when he saw his body? At that point, Ray started, I think Ray went into shock. Yeah, he didn't... Yeah, he didn't think... Right, that's when I realized, yeah, that's, yeah, that's when I started realizing Ray really never thought any of this was going to happen. What did he... did he do anything, or he just kind of froze and looked?

He's, "Oh my gracious, I didn't think he was going to do it. I didn't think you were going to do it. I didn't think you were going to do it." So I said, "Ray, we got problems. We got to finish this man. We can't leave with them alive. They know us. They know me." So, Ray's in a lot of shock, and you're basically, are you kind of pleading with him, like, hey, we have to take care of this?

Yeah, "Please, come on, man." Or we're going to go to prison? Well, prison was even on my mind. Alright, you're 14, you're going to get in trouble, so. Well, not even that, "We've got to get this done. We've got to get out of here. Let's just get the hell out of here." It was hard. It was bad, man. It's hard to explain.

Everything at this point was racing super fast. I'm sure. But it was just vividly, stupidly vividly clear. Did Ray try to back out when he saw the dead body? Of course he did, yeah. So we go in the house and I go in the bedroom and of course Tonya's screaming I go in the bedroom, I get the gun box and of course it was a box and the pistol came in and the bullets are gone.

The bullets are missing out of the box. And they're not in the box and I'm panicking. And Steve on the floor is vomiting. And again, he's like in a comatose state, but he's trying to push himself up off the floor in this coma, but then he's falling back into his vomit. But I, for some reason, I happened to look and I noticed he had something in his hand, and something made me go over and look, and it was the box of bullets.

Oh, really? So I guess when he had walked in that bedroom after we had walked outside and seen the gun box down, then he took the bullets out of the box. While he had been shot in the head? No, this was, yeah, this was after. He had got the bullets before I shot him. At the time, me and Greg were outside, Steve must have walked in the bedroom to see what we were doing and seen that gun box down, and then the bullets, and took the bullets. Wow. So did you take them out of his hands? I took them out of his hand and I gave them to Ray. What did Ray do with them? He started reloading the gun. So how did he get the gun? You gave it to him? I gave him the gun. Yeah, I told him, I didn't even know how to load the gun.

I said, "I need you to load this gun." Wow, you didn't even know how to load the gun? I didn't even know how to load the gun, yeah. It's crazy that somebody can have the power of using a gun and not even know how to load it. Not even know how to use it. Yeah, that's why I was telling one of my cellies a while back.

"Let me tell you something. My case is extremely stupid but stupid hurts." Well, man, this kind of s*** is what's making the gun laws all f***ed up. I know. Stupid. Yeah. When something like this happens. So, he gets it loaded, does he hand the gun back to you? Yeah, and I told him, "Ray, I can't. Just do it", and then he refused.

You tell him you didn't want to do any more killing, and then he didn't really... I tell him I didn't want to do any more killing. He says, "Billy, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do any killing." Wow. I said, "Ray, we talked about this, Ray." He kind of is. I think about this whole situation and he's the f***ing 20 year old out of this thing.

I couldn't imagine being 20 years old and having a 14 year old convince me to drive him somewhere to f***ing, it's absolutely f***ing absurd. Ray is f***ing whack. I know. I look back on it, at that time, to me, he's a 20-year-old with a car. He's an adult. He goes to Kansas City on his own.

I look back at it now and he was just a screwed up, f***ed up kid himself, man. Ray Richardson plays a complex role in Billy's case. He was known in the area as a loner who kept to himself reading science fiction books and westerns. He was also diagnosed with a schizoid personality disorder, an anti-social condition in which people avoid interacting with others.

This might be part of the reason why Ray struck up his strange friendship with the unlikely 14-year-old Billy Dyer. But the extent of Ray's culpability in Billy's crime is ambiguous. At Ray's trial, the prosecution would argue that Ray was an active participant in the murders. Meanwhile, Ray's defense team portrayed him as an easily led victim of circumstance who hadn't taken Billy's plan seriously.

In his own testimony about the day of the murder, Ray stated, quote, "I was on the outside looking in. It just seemed completely unreal he was doing something like that." Unquote. It seems that Ray hadn't reasonably believed that Billy would carry out his violent plan. However, even if he hadn't orchestrated the crime himself, at 20 years old, Ray Richardson was the only responsible adult in this situation.

And when Billy called for his help that evening, Ray had an opportunity to intervene, stop the bloodshed, and call the police before anybody else got hurt. Instead, Ray loaded new bullets into the empty .22 pistol, and by doing so, he was an accomplice in the murder of the final three Swift children. Ray failed to recognize his responsibility as an adult.

The image of Billy being unable to load the pistol properly is striking. At 14, Billy wasn't capable or mature enough to handle the weapon appropriately, yet he had just used it to take somebody's life. This moment of irony in the middle of a violent shooting shows Billy for who he was, a vulnerable young teenager.

With his gun reloaded, Billy prepared to resume his killing spree so he could escape the nightmare of a crime scene. So, he finally, he's just not going to do it, so, I guess you go over to Stacey? Well, no, actually, he handed me the gun back, and I ended up shooting Steve some more because he wasn't dead.

Jesus, man. I know. How are you doing this at 14 years old? I don't know. And keep in mind, Tonya's screaming at this time. Her head is bloodied from being beat. And while Ray's loading the gun, my stupid ass is running around the house, thinking, "We've got to make this look like a robbery."

This is what's going through my mind. This is the kind of s*** that's going through, "We've got to make it look like a robbery so nobody will...." You eventually had to take care of Tonya, right? Well, I had to finish Steve, shoot Stacy, and then Tonya, yeah. Yeah. Wow. But it's not even that cut and dry.

Because while Ray's loading the gun, Tonya's screaming, it's freaking me out so bad. But I run to the kitchen, I think, "Okay, you stab her." Yeah, it gets worse. So, whenever y'all finished, and you staged it like a robbery... Yeah. What did y'all do to stage it like a robbery? Okay, while Ray was reloading the gun, I attempted to stab Tonya one time.

And I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it. And she freaked, she screamed, it was horrible. I couldn't do it, I dropped the knife, I couldn't go through with that. I'm running around... You did actually go through with it, you just didn't like... One time, right, well I stabbed her one time. Right, yeah, I stabbed her once, but it was like extremely superficial if you read the report on it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it ever got past a rib, but yeah. I couldn't do it. No, no, yeah. Then, so while he was reloading the gun, I was knocking things on the floor to make it look like things were strewn about in disarray. That gives a unique aspect, or a way we can look at gun violence.

Guns are very easy to use. You point it and you pull the trigger. Yeah, you're right. When you really wanna kill somebody and you take guns out of the equation. Man, you got to go, it's some work. You got to either grab ahold of them and choke them or drown them, but it takes effort. Gun? Absolutely no effort. None whatsoever. You can sit in a lazy boy and point it and kill. Which makes it just all too easy, which, I like guns, but man, not when they're used like that. Yeah. F***s it all up, but anyway. Oh yeah. And then this is, again, this is the confusing part, like I said, because you get this idea when you were a kid that you see things happen, people get shot and die on TV.

And it doesn't happen like that, because when Ray handed me back the gun, I shot Tonya in the head. And she fell over, got up and started walking around the room again. Oh my God, dude. And so did Stacy. And I think I ended up shooting Tonya four times and Stacy three or four times. Oh, God, dude. I think the only one who wasn't shot multiple times was Greg, and he was the one who was shot through the eye.

Y'all, it was some cheap little rounds of .22s is what it is. 22s, yeah, cheap .22s. Yeah. Yep, that's exactly what it was. Old Ruger, the old Ruger Bearcat .22 long rifle pistol. I don't think, I don't think I've ever been so mad at a 14 year old before, William. Oh, yeah, are you mad at me? Man, yeah, it's...

I believe you. I get it. Believe me, I get it. How do you cope in prison, like, looking back on your childhood knowing you did that? Well, I'm an addict. Were you an addict then? No. You're an addict now? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I'm just a dysfunctional, yeah, addict with Parkinson's, waiting to die. That's what I'm doing. What are you addicted to?

Huh?. I'd rather not say on this telephone. Okay, I'm gonna guess K2. Hey, second highest mountain in the world, buddy. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I've done my homework, so. Yeah. That's why I say, people tell me you can tell your side of the story. I don't have a side. My side is that you can't clean this up.

This is a s*** bomb, crappy, f***ing horrible case. It's a teenage kid on a thrill kill. That's what it was. I thought it was going to be something cool and exciting to do. And it wasn't. It was a nightmare. Just hearing the story is f***ing difficult and you... Oh, I know, yeah, I know.

...orchestrated the entire thing. It's just... I orchestrated the entire thing, yeah. Can you f***ing believe that? You'd be surprised how many people I have tell me that they had similar thoughts as kids. They just never acted on 'em. I can't believe that. Yeah, I know. Billy sums up his crime succinctly, a quote unquote "teenage kid on a thrill kill".

Billy Dyer senselessly killed four innocent children, slaughtering two thirds of a family in the space of one short evening. While Greg's murder had been quick and effortless, the other three children had long, painful deaths. The bullets failed to kill them immediately, so Billy made repeated attempts on their lives, all while a three-year-old Tonya screamed and begged for him to stop.

Ultimately, Steve, 15 years old, was shot four times after crawling under the couch for protection. Tonya, just three, and the darling of her family, was also shot four times and died curled up in her mother's blood soaked bed. 17-month-old Stacy, who was shot three times, died still holding on to her baby bottle.

It's hard to listen to, and it's hard to imagine that a 14-year-old boy could be capable of this carnage. You said you staged the place. Making it look like a robbery or a burglary was after you finished everybody off? No, it was while Ray was reloading the gun after I shot Steve and Ray came in the house.

So you were trying to stage it while you were killing them? Yeah. I was trying to make it look, after I shot the first two, I went and got Ray. Yeah, I know that. And then Ray came in and while he was reloading the gun, I started knocking stuff around just to make it look like people were ransacking the house, yeah.

Gotcha. So after you did finish the last one off, did y'all immediately leave or did y'all take anything else? Yeah, because our intention was to steal. Because there was a massive gun collection in the house. Y'all didn't take it, did you? No. We ended up taking two pistols and then we ended up throwing them away as soon as we got home.

Wow. Can you believe that? Well, I mean, a 14 year old coming up with a plan, I kind of, no, I can't believe it, but it's just like I'm so mad that I couldn't be there to go, "Dude, no." Somebody, Jesus Christ. I know. Awful, man. So, you actually take a couple of guns. When you get home, you're probably, what's the drive like on the way home?

Well, I remember me and Ray were very quiet. Dead silent? The car was, yeah, and I said, "Ray, was it worth it?" And he says, "No." I says, "We can't keep these guns." And he says, "No." You knew that was the answer, huh? Yeah. And I said, "We can't keep these guns." He says, "No." So I said, "We'll throw them in the lake." What lake did you throw them in?

Well, we lived right on the Lake of the Ozarks, yeah. We lived right on it, yeah. Have they ever recovered those guns? Yeah, they recovered them. Ray told them where they were. Okay. Yeah, a diver recovered them. Yeah, you threw them out into the lake, and you all went home. Did y'all both go to the same house together?

We lived right next door to each other, but yeah, he dropped me off and he went home. My parents weren't in the house at the time. There was a bar. It was our two houses and a bar. My mom managed the bar. Did you go home or to the bar? I went home. They never knew I left the house. My mom and stepdad knew I never even left the house that night.

What's the first thing you did when you got home? After we threw the guns in the lake, it was right there, because we literally threw the guns right there on our property. I really don't remember what the first thing I did was. It's probably a moment of shock, I'm sure. So how long after that did you see your parents?

I passed out before they came in. I remember waking up, and they were on the phone, and they were upset, because of the homicide down the road. And there was all kinds of activity about this, yeah, this serious homicide. Did they tell you about it? Yeah. What was your reaction when they told you about it? I acted like I was surprised.

Did that worry you? You know, I don't know. I was at that point there, my appetite was s***, my nerves were shot. I was paranoid. It was crazy, yeah. Did you ever see it on the news too? I watched it on the news the next morning, yeah. My parents wouldn't let me go to school the next day. Did you ever go walk down the street or go back over there?

Oh no, I never had a chance to. The original purpose of Billy's plan had gotten lost somewhere in the chaos of that night. Almost as an afterthought, with all four kids dead, Billy stole a handful of guns from George Swift's collection and fled the house with Ray. On the drive home, the futility of keeping the guns dawned on Billy.

They were pieces of evidence that tied him to the crime. So Billy and Ray threw them in the Ozark Lake at the edge of their homes. Before Billy got home that night, an 18-year-old girl named Debbie Ballantyne was just pulling up at the Swift family home. Debbie was a friend of Stephanie, the Swift's oldest daughter, who was currently in a Columbia hospital, and Debbie had come to tell the Swifts that Stephanie had plans to visit that weekend.

Inside, Debbie was greeted with a scene of horror and, finding the dead bodies, she fled next door to call the police. It was around 10:00 pm, cutting short a bingo game, that George and Joyce Swift were notified by officers about what had happened to their children. Through the rain on the drive home, the Swift parents saw their house cordoned off with police tape and flashing blue and red with police lights.

How long after that happened did you get questioned by the police? Later on that afternoon. So, wow, that afternoon? Actually, the following day. Yeah, because like I said, I had told people ahead of time I was going to do it, including some friends at school. Yeah. And after it happened, of course, they went to the, you know, the school authorities and told them.

Did they arrest you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did you confess to it right away? No, I never did. Ray did. I didn't. Ray confessed that night. He said everything? Yep. How long did you hold out? I mean, I pled guilty a year later. So it took you a year in jail to plead guilty? Yeah. In that time in jail, did the family ever reach out to you?

No. No. You know that was devastating to them, right? Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. I know damn well it was. How could it not be? Yeah. Absolutely. I was in the dog program. I was a dog programmer for damn near 10 years. I had a dog that I had to shift and I couldn't sleep. I can't imagine somebody murdering my family.

Yeah, it's pretty intense. After you, how did they treat you being 14 years old? You know what, I really don't remember all that much. I'm not sure. They didn't treat me bad. They didn't say a whole lot around me. I don't think they were allowed to because of my age. So did you get a public defender or a paid attorney?

At first I had a paid attorney, who ended up getting assigned as a public defender, but what I ended up getting was, I had some high end lawyers out of Alabama that volunteered for the case. It was at a place called the Southern Poverty Law Center, I don't know if you're familiar with it. No, I'm not actually.

There was a lawyer named Morris Dees, and he volunteered, he was a civil rights lawyer. And he volunteered for the... What's the name of it? It was called the Southern Poverty Law Center. Do they still exist? It does. Okay. I think Morris Dees is not part of it anymore, but he started it. What was it like at 14 years old being in jail and you just, you knew that you're looking back days, weeks, months that went by, you look back and saw that you murdered almost an entire family? It's stupid.

Okay. And this is the stupid part. What's f***ed up is, after I was in jail, of course it's a very small county jail, right? I was a celebrity. Really? I mean, everybody that came in, I was the center of attention, and that started going to my head. Were you a tough kid at 14? No, not at all. So you actually started taking on the role of being the guy that killed people?

Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And I see that a lot with these kids coming in too. They go through that phase where they think that's the greatest thing anybody's done, and I'm like, "Oh, come on. We'll get over that one." Yeah. Parking ten years in here, yeah. I just, I mean, I don't know, I think that bragging about money and things like that are kind of more appropriate.

But bragging about taking somebody's life is just kind of crazy. Right, well, that right there shows how f***ed up in the head you are. Yeah. Yeah, well, immature, but also no guidance because the 20 year old, there's usually somewhere where there's an adolescent, there's an adult nearby. And that adults is kind of, you know, whether it's yours, your child or not, you got to make sure that kind of s*** don't happen.

20 years old, he should have been. Ray's f***ing, what the f***, Ray. I know. Yeah, if not him, at least Scott or Chris. But also, there's 14 year olds that accomplish a lot and are extremely mature. And I don't think I was mature back then, but I knew that was not something you should do. But also, if I did get that idea, I'm around a bunch of adults that are gonna put me back in my place. You would hope. You would hope that they would put you back in your place instead of just blowing you off and thinking you're just some kid running your mouth. And it happens more often than you think. Billy's case attracted widespread media coverage in Missouri at the time.

That fact is not surprising. It had been an act of sickening violence that had decimated a whole family and was bizarrely committed by a teenager. The community living in the peaceful Camden area was shaken. Initially, the investigation had pursued George Swift as the lead suspect until evidence came to light that pointed directly to Billy Dyer.

It was photo day at Camdenton Junior High School on the day after the murder, and two officers had visited the school to canvas for information. Two boys approached to admit that they had overheard Billy Dyer bragging about stealing the guns on the school bus. A mathematics classmate confirmed that Billy had boasted that he would kill anybody who stood in his way.

Then, Ray Richardson came forward. He signed a damning declaration in police custody that stated that Billy had shot the children, fled, and disposed of the guns he stole in the lake. The net around Billy tightened, and by Saturday, he was arrested and held without bond. Typically, juvenile offenders are treated differently to adults in the U. S. criminal justice system. It is recognized that children have a greater chance of reforming, and they are often given lighter sentences. Instead of being charged with a crime, a juvenile is usually charged with an act of delinquency. However, though just 14, Billy was certified to stand trial as an adult instead.

His crime was found to be so severe that his juvenile status would be waived and he would face the full brunt of the law. As word got round about the teenage killer, Billy acquired somewhat of a celebrity status in the region. Officers even reported that locals from the community were trying to get arrested simply to get at Billy.

The Swift family was left devastated by the loss of their four youngest children and tragedy struck a fifth time when just three weeks after her siblings were buried. Stephanie Swift also died of ovarian cancer. Shortly after, Joy and George Swift packed their bags and left their now empty cabin in the site of their painful memories.

After the break, we'll hear more about the course of their lives.

So there's a, the Tampa Bay Times put out an article about the victim's mother, who is Joy Swift, who actually wrote a book that you mentioned. Oh, a Cry for Justice. Have you ever read the book? I've read that, and the one before it. So you have read these books she's put out?

Yeah. And speaking of Joyce Swift, and I've heard of this happening from time to time, and this is the mother of all of the people that you killed. No, she was the mother of two of them. Oh, mother of two of them. Of the victims. Yeah. Which ones? The two young ones. The two babies. And she has actually come and visited you in prison.

Right. How did you respond whenever you got wind, whenever she reached out and said, when you got that notification that she wanted to actually see you? In my mind, what I thought was going to happen was she was going to vent on me like nobody's. I thought I had that coming. Yeah. And in reality from what I gather, and I haven't read the book.

I'm doing the interview before. Sometimes I just kind of get ahead. But I've taken it that she's in a place where she feels like there's a connection between you and the people that she's lost. And I may be wrong. I hope that she doesn't hear this and think that no, that's completely not it. I'm just shooting from the hip, but I think that's kind of what she's after.

How do you, what do you think? Okay, there was two books. The first one was called They're All Dead, Aren't They? That came out in the early 80s. And it was released by a religious publisher, a Seventh day Adventist publisher. And Joy wrote about, basically, her search for answers after the crime. Okay, and she went to the Catholic Church all the year, and she ended up becoming a Seventh Day Adventist.

And like I said, it's a very religious book. And in the book, she basically forgave me. Bottom line, she wanted to forgive me for the crime and all that. So I did read that it's the sin, not the sinner, is basically the issue for her. Through her religion, she's not really blaming you, the human being, but more the sin.

Right. And then after, what happened was, later on down the line, the book was, the original book was called They're All Dead, Aren't They? She ended up rewriting the book and pulling out the religious material and updating it after the visit with me. Why do you think she removed the religious stuff out of it?

I think, in my opinion, for a broader sales base. Yep. Because the original one was released by a Seventh Day Adventist publisher. The second one was released by Cool Hand Communications out of Tampa, Florida. Again, secular. I'm going to make sure and try to get one of those books, or both of them. I would get both of them and read them in order, and that way you could actually see what's going on, because there was a local article here in Missouri, after the second book came out, that said this is just a rehash of the first book.

Updated. What is y'all's discussion? Did you talk on the phone before she came visit you in person? No. No, I was at work and they came to me and they said, look, Joyce Swift is here. She'd like to see you. Then they said, "You don't want to see her, do you?" Oh, really? That's exactly what they said. Yeah.

You don't want to agree to that, do you? I said, yeah, I'll agree to visit with her. You know why they do that? No, I really don't. So, I think that they're always worried that you, an inmate, may manipulate a victim in some type of way. So, it's safeguarding the victim. The less contact, the better, because you, an inmate, might find a way to kind of manipulate their feelings and stuff like that.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. But, so, whenever you go, they just surprised you? There was no preparation for you to see this person at all? No, I never anticipated that she was going to ask to visit with me. Yeah, that's crazy. So, what was your reaction? You were like, "Yeah, I want to see her." Yeah, I said, yeah, I'll agree to visit with her.

So again, I thought she was, I thought I had an ass raving coming. I really did. I thought, oh God, this is going to be... That was probably very intense. I mean, you probably went and kind of walk in there and thinking, wow, I'm fixing to go see the mother of two people I killed in the 70s. Yep. I'm fixing to get blasted here.

Yeah. So you go and you probably get patted down before you go in your room. Is it between glass or do y'all get to see each other? Yeah, it is. Yeah. They had us just behind glass. You got to pick up the phone? Yep. So whenever you walk in there and you see her in that glass, how would you describe her face?

Now you're older, you're mature, you kind of... tell me what you saw. I mean, I saw... She's, keep in mind, she's very young at the time of this crime too. She was only 19. Wow. Did you know that? Yeah. Her husband, the guy that she was married to, I guess he got her pregnant when she was like 15. Right.

Yeah. Wow. Because the oldest kids were his by a previous marriage, he was in his like mid 30s. So let's do some math. She's around 19 or 20. She was 19 at the time of the crime, right. Yeah. And it happened in 77? Yeah. 46 years ago. So she would be 65. Wow. How long ago did she visit you? How long ago?

1987, maybe? So this was actually 10 years later. Yeah. Yeah. 10 years after the fact. She's 29. And what was the look on her face? Actually, there was no malice. I'm sure there was so much to say. We're unsure of how things are going to be. We're nervous. Indifferent? But there wasn't animosity, which I didn't get.

I couldn't understand that. Did she do most of the talking? Here's the thing, I was reluctant to answer some of her questions. Yeah, what did she want to know? Because she wanted to know what the last minutes of her kids lives were like. I wasn't going to tell her that, because that's, there's no closure there.

I don't care what people think. How could that possibly bring that woman closure, man? Jesus Christ, how could you tell someone what their little daughter, excuse me, mm. Yeah, how the f*** could I? Yeah, so no, I wasn't going to tell her that, I wasn't going to make her go through that.

Did you cry on the phone with her? I think so, yeah. I think I wept a little, yeah. So y'all had a moment where y'all cried together? Yeah. It's impossible to truly measure the cost of Billy's actions on the Swift family. Losing five kids at once is unfathomable and Joy and George Swift grappled with the reality of being suddenly childless.

Since then, the severe trauma of that event has deeply affected the rest of their lives. Eventually, the Swift parents attempted to rebuild their family and welcomed three more children. And although the newest additions to the family never got a chance to meet their older siblings, the kids have inherited a kind of trauma stemming from this event.

Joy and George were so scarred by the experience that they never stayed in one place for long but uprooted their kids lives over 32 times in 17 years. The Swifts lived in fear of trusting strangers and the kids were homeschooled to avoid the risk of public school friends. There might be only four victims in Billy's crime, but he has caused lasting repercussions on a family that extends beyond just those he killed.

One way that Joyce Swift has processed her trauma is to turn to her faith. She has written several books about the crime, detailing her own path to forgiveness, and in 1988, Joy visited Billy in prison, of her own volition, to seek answers to some unanswerable questions about the crime. On a prison phone, behind a wall of glass, Billy remembers the conversation he had with Joy, in which she offered forgiveness and extended a hand to the killer of her children.

It was surprisingly cordial, he recalls, a chance to offer up closure. Perhaps this was a cathartic experience for Joy as confronting Billy helped her to relieve some of the pain that had burdened the last 10 years of her life. Joy Swift didn't return and has only once visited Billy in prison. However, this was not the last time Billy saw her. And her other family members have been present to contest every parole hearing Billy has had since then.

Here's what she told me too. She says, Billy, "If they ever decide to let you go, I'll never stand in your way because they know you and I don't." She said, I just know that, she told me, she said that, what she says, "My life at that time," she said, "I cherish every part of my life at that time before before you took it.

But I have to admit that even you were part of that." And she says, "And I don't know where you are and they do and I'll never stand in your way if it comes time for you to get out." Years later, of course, they've contested every parole hearing since. They've encouraged me to commit suicide. Blah, blah, blah, the whole nine yards.

I get it. I really do, believe me. If it was me, you'd be sending missiles at them. It's odd because I have one side of me. This shows that the parole board has a pretty tough job, if you think about it. One side of me is going, come on guys, he's 14. And then the other side of me is like, Jesus Christ. There's no way that he could get out on the streets.

It's f***ing tough. You know, what's weird is that if I'd have got life without, I'd probably be out right now. I don't know, man. You got to have some f***ing people saying, yes, it's okay.

And the parole board, man. If I'd had life without parole, with all those new juvenile rulings, the courts would have let me go. What did they sentence you to? I pled guilty to two life sentences running consecutive. Regular life. Two lifes running consecutive. Does that give you a parole date anytime? I mean, I've been seeing the parole board since 1982.

Every five years? Yeah. Have you ever, any of those times that you went in front of the parole board or any of those memorable where something happened where it was intense in the room or an argument or crying? Oh, absolutely. I've had some, yeah, I've had some grand mal if I can parole hearings. In Moberly one time I went up and they had, I forget how many people in there contesting. They had every institution, it was a show trial is what it was.

And I get it, I really get it, I mean, believe me. There was a bunch of people in there saying you shouldn't get out? Yeah, I mean, they had a couple members from the victims' family who brought delegates with them. I want to say, people that were married into the family that weren't even around back then. I had one gal say that she developed leukemia because I'm eligible for parole and her red blood cells won't reproduce.

Has every parole hearing, somebody showed up? Yeah, well, since they started allowing them to, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, since they started allowing it to. Yeah, walk me through one of those meetings. You get a hearing, you have a date you have to be there, and you get there, you walk in. Tell me what happens. Yeah, usually what they'll do is, they'll tell you, look, we have people that contest, so they're gonna be in there.

They're going to say their piece. You're going to have an officer between you. Don't speak to them. Look only at the board. And then when they get done saying we'll continue with the hearing and the board will address you. And there's usually three members there. They're pretty basic. Why should we let you go?

There's not a whole lot. They've never really considered me for parole. When they ask you why should you be out, what is your answer? You really can't give them an answer. The last two times I haven't even went up. Oh, you don't even go up to the parole on your meetings? The last two times I haven't even gone up there, no.

I didn't even bother to go up for them, no. I don't think they would parole you to be honest, but I'm surprised you don't go. Do you not go because you've lost hope? Yeah, exactly. I don't believe they ever really seriously considered me. I really don't. Well, I was going to say that's actually kind of rare because most inmates, man, y'all people just hold out hope that something's going to change.

I hear people that get life without, and they're never going to get out. They're like, "Oh, the law's going to change. I'll get out for sure." You know what I mean? "I'm getting out." I hear it all the time, but you actually skipped two meetings. Yeah, more than that. I think there's probably been a couple of before that too.

But I don't bulls*** myself. I got a friend. He's not in this institution anymore, but he's got five more years in than me, okay? He has a similar crime. He tried to date a girl. She turned him down. He was 16. He went over and killed her family. So I killed four people. Whenever he goes up to parole, he gets the town and they're contesting his hearing.

They're pissed off at him. And of course he gets this setback, and it devastates him. I'm like, "Really Ben, you thought they were going to let you go when you went in and killed that girl's whole family because she wouldn't date you, you thought you were going home." Let me ask you this, whenever you skip these parole hearings, do they write you a letter asking if you want to be at the parole hearing, do you say yes and then don't go, or do you just not?

Or do you say you don't want to go? Well, I told them last time, look, I told them last time, don't even bother calling me up here for this crap. Oh, so you get kind of a little bit irritated with them. I get stupid with them, yeah. I tell them, look, don't even bother. Yeah, I tell you, you're not going to consider. It's all bulls***.

Last year I had a parole hearing, right? Low and behold, I get a pass and I go see her. I show up, she doesn't, she stands me up. I get another pass a week later, she stands me up. A week later I get another pass, I stand her up. When I finally get to her, I said, "Look, why are you even doing this?

Why are you calling me up there?" I says, "After the last time I told you, just do what you're gonna do. You don't even need to involve me in this crap." So I do believe that parole hearings are for two reasons. One is to actually find out if they should let you out or not. Two is to control you, because if you think you might have a way to get out, you're going to behave so you can go in front of the parole board.

If you have no way to go in front of the parole board, you're going to say, f*** it and stab people. Yeah, I mean, maybe. Theoretically, that's the attitude. They're trying to... Yeah, no hope, yeah. I personally, I don't believe they would ever let me go. I never did. I don't sell myself that line.

Somebody else says, "You handle this being locked up better than most people I know and a lot of it did because of your age." It works as an advantage after a point. Yeah. Coming in so young. Since Billy's crime in 1977, the laws about how juveniles are charged for their crimes have changed significantly.

In 2012, it was ruled unconstitutional for anybody younger than 18 to serve a life without parole sentence. Research has empirically proven that young people's brains are fundamentally different to adults, therefore they must be treated differently in a court of law. The law recognizes that somebody cannot be fully held to account for a crime that they conducted before their brains were fully developed.

And before they had full possession of their reasoning to discern right from wrong. This ruling led to a burst of releases across the country as many inmates who have been sentenced to life without parole as juveniles had their cases reviewed and in some cases retroactively dismissed. Unfortunately, Billy Dyer was not one of them.

At the time of his crime, Billy was sentenced to two life sentences with the possibility for parole, so he doesn't qualify under this new ruling. No other legal amendments have changed the outcome of Billy's sentence. Instead, the only way Billy will again be a free man is to win the approval of the parole board.

Since 1982, Billy has had repeated chances at parole. But Billy speaks about his experience with the parole board with a grim fatalism, seeing it as a futile exercise. Many inmates are delusional in hoping to be released when every odd is stacked against them. Billy is the opposite. After years of his hopes being dashed

and years of facing a tirade of people who oppose his release, Billy has resigned himself to the fact that he will never be granted parole for his crime. Throughout our conversation, it's been clear that Billy is no longer the same misled 14 year old boy he once was but a mature adult with a deep awareness and a regret about his crime.

Yet the facts of his case are so appalling that Billy is convinced he will never earn parole and will die behind prison walls. Now, at 60 years old, Billy Dyer has spent the vast majority of his life in prison. This has been his reality for 46 years, and entering early has made it easy to adapt to the prison ecosystem while the civilian world outside marches on without him.

As the years pass by, and Billy suffers from the debilitating and progressing effects of his Parkinson's disease, I wondered what Billy's mental state is like at this time of his life. Yeah, so, you get sentenced to prison, where's the first prison you went to? Jeff City. The Walls. How old were you when you walked into them doors?

Fifteen. Fifteen, and this is not the same prison that is there today. This is actually a prison that is actually notorious for being pretty difficult. The Walls is what they call it, and it's in Jeff City. It does not exist anymore, they closed it up. What was it like being in there? It was... okay. The first thing was because of my age, they put me right in PC.

Right. So how was that though? You're still with... A lot of people don't realize PC is safer, but you're still in prison. Right. You know. You're still in prison. Right. Right. In fact, the first thing I seen was a guy get his head beaten with a wall bracket in the shower hall in PC. You'd be surprised. Not too bad.

I was young enough where I got a lot of sympathy from a lot of the old kids. Right. And let me ask you this. It may be difficult to tell the truth, but have you ever been r***d? No. No, I haven't. Okay. So at that age, you actually had some people take, you, kind of look after you a little bit because you were younger?

Yep. Did that make you kind of also kind of get into doing illegal activity in prison? No, actually that came later on. I mean, you are always gonna do your little things. You're gonna hustle, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. People do things in prison. But as far as just no. So later on, that kind of got worse as time went on.

So at what age did you finally f***ing realize that you were being an idiot? Oh, f***, probably in my 20s maybe? I mean, I mean, I think you know all along, man. Well, I think. For real. Yeah, no, I think also, listen, I'm not a perfect person. I think that I held immaturity for quite some time and sometimes hold on to some other things, but obviously not that deep, but I also think that when people start acting a certain way as a youngster, it's really hard to shake it as you get older.

And that's why our parents or whoever is looking after us try to set us on the right path, because man, once you get hooked and act in a certain way, it's really hard to shake that. It really is. I mean, it's almost like you feel like you're lying to yourself. Or, or, or renegading on a deal you made with yourself or something like that.

Mm-Hmm. I'm not like that. I'm gonna be like this. Yeah. And so you committed to that being like that, and it probably took you a really long time to shake that. Am I right? Yeah. I, yeah. And then over time though, you notice change. I mean, all of a sudden you're watching TV and s*** happening.

You're like, oh God, what? Look, I feel bad for some. When I see some of these dumb ass kids. Whips them. So, where are you at now in your psyche? How do you feel about yourself and your situation and everything else? I mean, my life's over at this point. I'm, of course, like I said, I'm ill.

I've got Parkinson's. I deal with that every day. As far as, what do you mean as far as how do I feel about my psyche? Are you completely giving up on everything? Do you have, do you wake up and feel like you have something to live for? Yeah, I have things I enjoy. I was in the dog program for 10 years.

Yeah, William, I'm going to read that book and possibly get back to you, but I appreciate you talking with me. I feel really bad for the adult William Dyer. I'm mad at your 14-year-old self. And I think you are too. You grew into an adult and then look back and it's like, your child, as you, just f***in did something really horrible, man.

Yeah, the child killed the adult. So, but I think I'm gonna order this book and probably email you, but Okay. Alright. Yeah, email me and I'll get back with you. Okay. Thank you for using Securus. Goodbye.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer. I feel I was likable. I was, you know, real likable. You know, I mean, I never had any problems with anybody. We all know that we have a very broken criminal justice system that is set up for profit. Did they ever recover a gun from anyone in that group or the victim that was shot?

I fired one gun at the guy that was pulling the gun and then I chased the other one away. What is your response to that? Okay, that was all a lie. The thing is, that video was edited. Oh, edited. How does that feel knowing that you're probably gonna die in prison? I mean, I trust in God, so, you know, that's all I can do is just keep believing, you know?

That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Billy for sharing his story with us today. His ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. If you want to listen to these episodes weeks in advance, you can now do so by joining our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/VoicesofaKiller.

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Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support, and we can't wait to share more with you. Thank you for tuning in, I'm your host Toby and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.