Ep 4 | CLIFTON RAY Transcript

Voices of a Killer Podcast: 

Ep 4 | Clifton Ray Transcript

 Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers, listener discretion is advised.

How'd you kill him? Like I said, I did what I did and God has forgiven me. I'm still doing time in prison. That's justice. Why do you strangle? Why that method? You know, I, I wouldn't try to kill the man, I just want to whoop his butt real bad. How many people, victims do you admit to killing? Two. They're not trying to pin one more on you there's like four or five more. I can't never get back a life no matter how bad I want right now, I can't get back a life, I can't. If I r*** somebody I can go back and say I'm Sorry if I Rob somebody's life. Ain't nothing I can do to give that back. Ray, do you feel like you're a bad person? I think I'm at wherever God want me to be.

You are now listening to the podcast voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.

They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They're currently serving time for their murders and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter. Now, here are the voices of those who have killed.

On this episode of Voices of a Killer, we are going to examine the case of our first serial killer. Clifton Ray Jr is a serial killer who committed at least three murders on the streets of Kansas City, Missouri between 1987 and 1994, and is suspected of six other murders. Ray was convicted of the strangling of his neighbor in 1995, but thanks to advances in DNA technology, he was later linked to two other murders.

He is currently serving a life sentence for these convictions in the Missouri State Correction System. Without the chance of parole, despite being convicted of three of his killings, Ray still claims innocence on one of them. Something that we will discuss in this episode. So sit back and listen closely.

Join us as we delve into the mind of an American serial killer Clifton Ray. So let me ask you a question, Ray. Where did you grow up? Can see your first name's Clifton, right? Yeah, most people call me Brother Ray. Okay. Would you describe your childhood as kind of rough or, or, or what? You know, something. That's what I tell people, man, you know, my background people wanna kick me dead in my butt-ass. What the Hell I'm prison for, you know? No, I, it, it wasn't rough. It wasn't, it wasn't rough at all, man. My mom and dad. My dad just died about six years ago. Had my mom married about 56 years. I can count divorce on my mom and dad's side on one hand, and they don't get married. Stay together, somebody die. Do you have support on the outside, Ray?

Do you have family that's in contact with you? Well, most of the people is dead, man. I mean locked up people that will support me matter of fact. I prayed for years, Lord. Gimme a chance to be able to call a couple people that I did wrong. My son's mother and uh, her birthday, 31st of January, like two, three weeks ago, I called her.

We talked, talked to each other up. I apologize to her. She had no hard feelings. So next couple days she did she get her card? Did I have the right Address? So I called guy, answer what she's saying at, he said, yeah, she got the card, she appreciate it. He said, I got some bad news, or what else? She died yesterday. So I called her one day and got a chance to talk to her the next day she died.

Wow. No, I'mma tell you I've been locked up too long, locked 30 years, almost 18 years. I was meant to go home. Man, that's crazy, bro. Then they tried me on these Cold cases, so. I wanna read to you what it says on the internet. Have you ever heard what it says about you? I heard all kinda crazy. I dunno if you're familiar with Wikipedia, but it's like if you type in somebody's name and you got your own Wikipedia page, that means you're kind of important.

Well, they're literally calling you an American serial killer, responsible for at least three murders. Okay? It says, uh, Clifton Lee Ray, born in 1958 is an American serial killer responsible for at least three murders in Kansas City, Missouri, between 1987 and 1992, and is suspected in six other murders.

Ray was convicted of murdering his neighbor in 1995 and was soon going to be eligible for parole until DNA profiling exposed his responsibility in the murders of Deborah Taylor and Joycie Flowers. In October, 2007, Ray was convicted of both murders and was sentenced to life imprisonment. So here's what it says underneath your name.

It says Victims: three to nine plus. So it says more than nine. Now what'd that mean? I mean, I don't know. It means that's a lot of f***ing murders, man. And like two of 'em you admit to? Yeah. I But you said he said three, you said three to nine plus. What does that plus mean? More to nine. It means there's other people that they don't, maybe not suspect you of, but they're, they're they, I don't know.

I don't know, man. I ain't never heard that one. That's a good one. I mean heard, that's the first time I heard that: three to nine plus.

Now you might be thinking Ray is unfamiliar with technology due to his age. Although being 64 at the time of recording, Ray has spent the last 28 years in prison. Which means his interaction with the outside world has been sparse, especially considering his lack of family connections.

He's also right in saying that he was about to be released 18 years ago. Ray's first conviction was for second degree murder of his neighbor in 1994, and he was about to be paroled in 2004. However, DNA linking him to the murders of Deborah Taylor in 1987. And Joycie Flowers in 1990 emerged in 2007, meant that he was charged with first degree murder for these two cold cases and later sentenced to life imprisonment.

Now the timeline here is a little confusing, so we will do our best to explain it. According to Ray's Wikipedia page, he is suspected of up to six other murders, possibly more. There is doubt that hangs over how many victims he had. However, we do know of three of these victims. The first murder we will look at is the one that got him convicted.

The murder itself occurred in 1994, and he was sentenced in 1995. I'll let Ray do the talking from here.

Who'd you kill the first time? Case arrested was got into it, and, uh, he got killed. How'd you kill him? Well, he was beaten, choking, stomped. He had a fight. So the first guy that you actually got in a physical fight with him and beat him and choked him, is what you're saying?

Yeah. Yeah. Was it over drugs? Yeah. No, it wasn't over. No, wasn't over. I

was, he was doing stuff to my door. I thought he was a racist guy, putting trash in my house. And one day I seen him and he's like, he.

I figured he did it. I dunno if he did or didn't. I really don't. But I figured he the one that did it, so I just kicked in the door. That's when all everything started. Wow. So did you feel like, uh, that felt good to you to do that at the time? I know you're different now, but at the time, did you feel like that felt good to kill?

Wouldn't kill, want to whoop his butt real bad. Right. You know, I wouldn't, I'm gonna kill him. I just, I didn't have nothing. I'm, you know, I'm like, I'm numb. I'm on drugs. I didn't have no feeling like I desire to go kill people. It ain't like I just felt like. I'm gonna get you what you did. Right? So basically kind of like a vindiction type thing.

This stuff been going on for minute, you know, I'm do something.

So after, after you killed him, you just went back over to your house and kind of hid out. I left. I left and came back maybe hours. I, I knocked, he was, I left, I was drunk in houses. Hours later they talk to, I said about what, you know, they had the crime neighbor got killed. I said, well, I don't, nothing about, I got arrested and later I'll take second-degree murder they'll give me 20 years.

I'll just go ahead and take it. Yeah. The details of that fateful night are pretty fuzzy for Ray. Yes. This was almost 20 years ago, but he didn't plan to kill him. But in the heat of the moment it happened, it's clear that drugs played a part in Ray's life before prison, having seen the effect of drugs on other people who end up in jail.

I was wondering, was he more impulsive and prone to violence? Did the drugs make him feel invincible and give him a false sense of power? Perhaps delving into his relationship with drugs would give us a better idea of why he killed. Right. So Ray, did you get into drugs at one point? Yeah, that's why I'm in prison.

Right. I hate drugs. I hate, I hate with passion. Yeah. But that's why I got drugs, alcohol, and all that stuff. If you would've never done drugs, you wouldn't be in prison. Would that be pretty accurate? I have a better chance not being in prison. Yeah. When did you just start doing drugs? Ray, we, you know what you mean by drugs, weed and stuff.

Like, you know how we, in high school you smoking weed? Well, I mean, did you do anything hard like meth or c***ine or anything like that? I didn't do c***ine until I, like

the next year, I did the first. Gotcha. So were you an alcoholic though? Yeah, I was drunk. Definitely alcoholic. Yeah. Do you feel like when you drink, that's when you committed the crimes? No, I can be a happy drunk. I can be a mean drunk, but most of the time when I really started doing crack, when I was on that crack on c***ine.

My question to you is, is there's a lot of people out there that do drugs and smoke crack and stuff, but they don't kill. Why are you like that? Yeah, I dunno. I dunno. I wish I. Made me kill. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know. I just can't answer that question. You know, he don't know one. I mean, it's crazy cause one day talking and you know, he talking to some people that you might know and next thing you know, they walk through, killed 20 people, but they didn't have that in them.

I believe in demons and devils and stuff like that. I believe they can't, I don't know. Well, you know that most people out there in the real world outside of prison probably think you may be a demon or a devil. How's that make you feel? You know something, uh, I'm, if they would come back, they have me on, broadcast me on TV right now and say, and exonerate me on everything, it's still gonna be people saying, I'm devil demon,

Jesus Christ. They praise one day, one week. The next week, say, crucify him. People gonna think about you, good or bad, regardless. Some people you talk to might think you a nice guy. Some people might think that you a snake, did that bother you? You doing what you doing right? You think you're doing the right thing, you know?

Especially you ain't hurting nobody. You trying to help somebody. You trying to out, you doing human. I can't pronounce that word that I'm doing. I'm pulling out you trying to pull out. Okay. What makes you do this? Why did you do that? People willl say this and say that. You know, I can't help what people think.

After the break? Ray talks about the murder of Deborah Taylor in 1987.

So when was your first murder that you committed, Ray? That was, uh, 1987. Who'd you kill the first time? Deborah Taylor. That murder, we was out there getting high, me and about four other guys, and this girl, she was sucking d***. And we just partying after. It was nice outside. We actually just kicking it.

People was leaving. Officer maybe me, I left her, she wanted more dope and uh, I, she said, well, I did well, you gotta do it again. So she started and she jumped right and said she grabbed my d*** and start squeezing. She wouldn't let go. So I just started squeezing her neck, the guy laughing and I'm tryna squeeze and she won't let go and then I felt her hand went limp.

She was dead. The guy ran off. I left, ran off too. Once you started strangling her, obviously she had to let go. Once you started strangling her, why did you not stop? Why did you kill her? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe with the drugs I did after it seemed like a, a trance or whatever, soon she let go. I just kept on and then I let go.

When she fell, how long did you strangle her for? I can't remember. I really can't. It was, that happened back in 1987, I guess. Five, two or three minutes. 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes. I don't know. I know I was sore down there. I was sore down there for about a week. Her squeezing and me squeezing, so I remember that much.

So Ray, I mean, it is kind of like fascinating that strangling somebody, you have so much time to just let go because it really takes minutes. I mean, like what goes through your head when you're holding onto their throat? You know, and crap drugs and alcohol lot stuff, man. You don't think, you know what I mean?

You don't think. Yeah. If I did, I would've did it. You know? Yeah. Ray, do you think that everybody has it in them to do something like that, or you think there's people that just can't do that kind of thing? To be honest with you, I think in any situation, a person says they'll do anything, yeah, you've probably met some people who are the nicest people in the world but give 'em a drink, you won't be around them. So you don't know why you, you have like this propensity to kill people.

The last time I commited a crime was 1994. Almost 30 years ago, and I ain't been on the street either. I've been, I've been in prison. You know, I wouldn't think, bro, I'm go kill this person and kill that person. It didn't happen like that. Didn't come close to happen like that. Sharing the harrowing details of Deborah Taylor's murder, it's hard to find motivation behind Ray's killings so far.

Like his neighbor, she too was strangled and we can see that there is a pattern emerging. Drugs are involved and Ray finds himself in a violent scenario, which he then flees. Unfortunately for Ray, his DNA was found at the scene and he was charged with Taylor's murder in 2007. It added even more time to his already lengthy prison sentence, and at 28 years behind bars, he's had a lot of time to think about his murders being in the prison system for that long.

He must have seen a lot. So I wanted to know what his perspective on being incarcerated was like. I was surprised by his nickname amongst inmates Brother Ray. This is due to his involvement in Bible study groups and ministering to other prisoners. Now, you might be wondering why this is relevant to our discussion of a serial killer.

He got me thinking, has Ray's newfound passion for faith had any impact on his moral compass? How can he justify his actions and does he think that his God really forgives him? I bet you've seen a lot being in prison for that long. I'm gonna take you back real quick. When I got locked today, you familiar with Kansas City at all?

Yeah, a little bit. Okay. In Kansas City back then they had, they didn't have no new county jail that you got, well, they had the county new jail, but, but what they did, you get arrested, take to the city, get arrested in Jackson County, Kansas City, Kansas area. Inside the jails. On the other side where you could look, you put your hand shake that man's hand right beside you they had drunks and.

Yeah. So he put me to cell by myself, man. And I got down there and I just prayed, man. For real? I just said, I'm, I'm, I ain't doing this no more. I'm tired. Drugs, I'm not problem. I hurt people. I don't wanna do this no more. So that's April 1994, the last time I got high. How would you describe prison? You know, I had, we had people come in here that said, man, y'all, some of y'all guys are free or here than we are on the outside.

Cause they're in their own little prison. When I was alcoholic and I was drunk, I was a dope-fiend on the street. I was in prison, but I didn't know it. But he talking about this physical prison I'm in right now, it could be, I've been in about seven, eight different prisons. I was in prison. I'm level five now. I've been to a level one prison while working outside the gates every day.

Even though I had a crime, there was a murder charge. My warden didn't care. I working for the warden, he, he ain't going nowhere. Go home about four months. Yeah. I don't want get to the point, you know I got all this time, miss God door and let me outta here. You know, one of these days, man, I'm gonna be in prison. I don't wanna be to the point where I'm laid up in a chair.

Somebody has to wipe my butt and feed me and push me around. I don't wanna be that way. I'd rather be running around the track and just fall down dead, you know? Seriously. I don't wanna be a burden on nobody. I don't wanna just go out miserable like that. Yeah. I'm grateful that at 64 I still got a little help left.

I can't do stuff for myself. My eyesight getting bad and hearing it getting bad, but that's like I won't be no young man in the casket, that's for sure. Right, right. So when did you start getting into Bible studies in there? I was basically brought up in church. I got old enough to do what I wanted to do.

So I was raised, my mom made us go to church when we was little kids, but I started, I got arrested. I said, I'm life up. I was with everything and I just started getting back into the, I wasn't way, what am I doing? And that's the last time I did drugs and I just started trying to live right man. And so I've been into word of God trying to get into Word of God since I've been

locked up and, uh, this opportunity came opportunity. They, you go to this Bible university, you know, if you look up my name, they won't say inmate probably say, they said it was say, uh, student university. And what is the university? They, what they trying to do is change culture of the prison system. How's that?

So they're giving people, so you go in there, they going in there and getting. Learning more about the word of God. And they ain't just got Christians in here, they got Muslims and all kind of different people in there. So you learn more about the word of God academically. That way you can go out and not only in the street but in prison and help, you know, talk to people getting high, talk to people that own drugs, talk people that's gang banging.

Talk to people that's, that's racism. White and black on both sides and just, you know, so 'em have to live that way. No more helping people try to change. Right. So my question to you, Ray, is, you know, you've gotten heavy into Bible studies and all that, so you learned about a lot of stuff about how Christianity works.

Do you think that God forgives you about what you did? I think God has, has forgiven me. Things I did, I sincerely, I sincerely, uh, regretted. I know. Uh, Drugs. You know, I used drugs and alcohol, but it wasn't all that made me do it. It was something, me, drugs and alcohol just brought it out, you know? I think it was, and I believe it was.

And I think he had forgive saying that God even says, you know, he'll forgive you if you truly repent. Turn from your sin. Follow me regarding what you done. Did you know you ever heard of Son of Sam? Yeah. Remember him? You know what he's doing right now. What's that? He's up in New York, in, in, in Udica. He been, he been ministering the word of God for years.

And some preachers heard about it. Said what? And they said they went there to talk to him and he, and they came back after to us, man. Little while one day, you know, talking to him. They came, he's the real deal. He's turn life around. So some of the people that he minister to, to get outta prison, they ain't remember him as a serial killer.

They can remember him as a man that turned on. Help them turn their life around, try to serve the Lord and do the right thing, live the rest of their life respectfully. That make sense? What I'm saying? For those who may not be familiar, the Son of Sam Killer, whose real name is David Berkowitz, is an infamous serial killer who terrorized New York City in the 1970s.

The name son of Sam comes from the way he signed off letters that he left at the crime scenes of his victims. Berkowitz was arrested in 1977 and is currently serving six consecutive life sentences. But what caught my attention was the fact that both Ray and Berkowitz had turned to religion and were ministering to fellow inmates.

It was an interesting parallel between the two as they had both committed heinous crimes and then sought redemption behind bars with little hope of seeing the outside world. In fact, it's highly likely that both men will spend the rest of their days incarcerated. Now as an atheist, I don't believe in redemption the same way that Ray does.

And given the brutality of his crimes, it's difficult to understand Ray's stance on faith and morality. I wanted him to know about my relationship with religion so that we could maintain transparency between us and to better understand his motivation for killing. I was curious to know if Ray thought he would go to hell for what he had done.

So you don't think that God's gonna send you to hell? I really don't think so. I really don't even all liars go to hell. And they just want continue to lie. He don't have to be be to harm somebody, you, all you have to do is if you just say, I don't that stuff, man, that stuff bunch crap. But my belief is this is you could be a good person, never money to church and all that stuff, and go work in hospitals and do everything you can to help people.

I don't believe that crowd though. That right there, I believe was take you to hell right there. I believe in the son of God. So would you believe it if I told you I, I don't believe in God. I, well, ain't, ain't,

I understand that. I understand that. Don't make way. Sure. I mean, I just, I, I'm asking these questions, but not because I'm a Christian. It's, it's, I, I just don't believe in the ideology. I just, uh, I'm just not a believer. I understand what you saying right there. Don't believe that's who, that's not me for me to judge.

You know, after the break, Ray talks about the murder of Joycie Flowers in 1990.

So what happened with Joycie? How'd you kill her? This one happened in 1990. That case right there. I had s** with that woman, man. But I got convicted. I got convicted. That murder, you did get convicted of it, but you're saying you didn't do it. I got convicted of that in 2007. That murder, man, you've already been found guilty of it, right?

I got an appeal on on that one. Everything I plead guilty to, I had no problem talking about. Sure, sure. Well, my question is, is you just was around her, that's why your DNA was on, or was she choked? She was found in a field and they said she was strangled to death. She was naked. She had some socks on. They said she wasn't dragged and nothing. She, she died when she had s** at.

They said she had volunteered s**. I don't know. I don't know how they know all this stuff. They said death that they said how they put my. They didn't see no, it was sudden. The DNA is very sensitive. They didn't see no gloves or nothing hanging around in the mouth or nothing like that. When they doing the, they found traces of my DNA in the v****a.

They, they found traces of my DNA in her mouth. What the deal was, in 1990 I was downtown, about the Union Mission. The two detectives pulled up and said they didn't talk to me, so they came and said he talk to you. I said, for about what they said, a girl was r***d. Said they showed my id. Some pictures and she picked mine out. They gonna take me downtown and put me in the lineup.

I said, bet, because I know ain't nothing. I know I ain't. So I go downtown, they put me in a lineup. Whoever that person was, didn't take me pick somebody else. That's last I heard that. So I'm said, Hey, we need to talk to you about, so left. I said, what? They took me down there, so asked me about a person found dead in the field.

I said, I don't know what you talking about. You hear my, you hear somebody found somebody dead in the field? I said, no, I'm. So they didn't show me no picture, nothing else. They said, well, some people said they, you talking to this person that found said, probably talking to a lot of people I field, I said, is I nothing about, I ain't, they said, well we need to get some samples from you.

I said, get a search warrant, you get all sample you, but I'm giving nothing voluntarily. That's what I told them. So they said, okay, you want play that way? I said, man, look here. Y'all had me down for something about a girl got r***d. The girl didn't pick me. Now y'all to put a murder on me. I said, I'm going for that man y'all won.

Cooperate with, go get some warrant. They came back with a warrant. I said, they took some from my head. They took a whole bunch from my pubic hair and that was it. They put me black upstairs in, in the holding cell. About 16, 17 hours later, came and said, you can go. I said, what's the problem? I said, well, I kind of found lady.

None of that hair, nothing at the scene at all matched me. Nothing. Okay, so 20, 25, 30 years later, whatever, I'm gonna get outta prison. Two detectives came down from Kansas City. I was over here in Jeff City where I'm at right now. They said, you talk to me about the murders. I said, what you talking about? So they showed me some pictures.

One of the picture was the, the girl that I said guilty to, and the other one was this flower girl that happened in 1990. But this picture they showed me of her, they showed me a woman that's laying down the outside naked in a field. They said she was dead. Okay. That what they showed me and they said, first look like, no.

And that was it. I shouldn't have said nothing but so when they took me down to jail for. So Ray was shown pictures of both Deborah Taylor and Joycie Flowers side by side. Detectives were trying to demonstrate a pattern of killing a pattern that Ray had denied up to that point. Now, whilst Ray confessed to the murder of Taylor, he refused to admit to killing flowers.

However, DNA was found at the crime scene that linked Ray to the murders. Although DNA testing was not widely available in the eighties and nineties crime scene, investigators still collected DNA n evidence with the hope that technology would improve. As it did improve. DNA n a testing became more common and played a vital role in solving many cold cases, including the murder of Joycie flowers.

Ray was subsequently put on trial and the DNA evidence became a key point of the prosecutor's argument. Something which Ray contests to this day. When I went to trial, they said they found my dna. They had traced my DNA in her mouth and they had faces in my DNA in the v****a. They said when whoever had s** with it must have been real hard cause she blood came outta her v****a at the same time the person came.

So during the trial they had these three or four experts saying this and said, so, This was the first trial. I had two trials. The first one got me a hung jury. So I asked my lawyer, I said, look man. I said, ask was my DNA in that blood Cause they ain't mentioned nothing. My DNA had to be in that blood. I had s** like they say I did.

She's dna. You found? No. He found DNA cups or anything else. You found cigarette butts? No, but we did have his DNA inside this person. We had some people that couldn't get up there at the same time. He's a doctor. He said, we got some thing saying that a person got somebody coming in the mouth, their saliva after drinking, gargling eating and then all this other stuff, Brush their teeth and everything.

He come back six hours and still trying to, the dna, the mouth, and the same dude that was staying on this doctor said, oh, it could have been 12 hours. So that's the case. I didn't plead guilty to it. Really all they had was your DNA on this third person. Nothing else? The hair didn't belong to me, cigarette butts had stuff on, didn't belong to me.

Cuffs, the stuff that had DNA didn't belong to me. The only DNA they found in me was in that person. Well, lemme ask you a question. These people that they're claiming that you killed and they found your DNA N on them, were they strangled? Yep. And typically that's the way you've killed before, is strangling, right?

Well, one of 'em was a strang was beating and whatever, but the cause of death was that's common strangulation. So how many people, victims do you admit to killing? Two. So this third one, you actually claim your innocence on? This one? Yeah, me, 25 years I plead guilty. That case, and I wouldn't do it because I didn't do it.

I'm not doing it. Can I say something real quick? Yeah, real quick. Okay. That same prosecutor. That I'm talking about. About two years later, three white guys, they got outta prison because of him. Cause they found out he lied and hid the cases and had people lie cases for him. They got outta prison. Jackson County, the county I'm in, they turned around and fired this prosecutor.

His name is Dan Christian Miller. They fired him for doing cases like this case. They was tired of him so they fired him. Miller turned around and sued Jackson County for firing him. Jackson County turned around and said, here's $70,000. We'll settle out the court leave. He took the $70,000, he left. His boss was over him. The main Prosecutor about a year later he quit the prosecution office and went somewhere else, in Jackson County.

He got caught stealing and embezzling money. They Locked him up in prison. Mike Sanders, they locked him up in prison, took his law license away from him. Dan Miller, they gave that man, like I say, $70,000 they leave. Why? Because he know everything they did. Why would you give somebody some money? You can caught them cheating. Red handed. You fire them and they gonna sue you and you gonna pay them to leave?

That don't make sense. Well, let ask you a question. Is it possible that you were so high that you just didn't think you did it, but maybe you did? I'm gonna say it this way. Anything's possible. They said I had probably seven or eight more murders. You said. They said, my thing is okay if you believe everything come outta your people's mouth.

I feel for you. Cause they did it all day. Why don't you just charge me for it? They know I ain't got no money. I can't fight it. He can say no all day long. As Ray describes this tragic case, it might be difficult to understand why he proclaims his innocence. The story that Ray refers to regarding the prosecution lawyer and judge actually holds truth.

The prosecution lawyer at Ray's trial, Dan Miller made headlines for withholding evidence in a 2004 case that resulted in a 22 year sentence for Matthew Davis who had pleaded guilty to abandoning the body of his girlfriend after she had died of a drug overdose. Jackson County Judge Edith Messina threw out Davis's guilty plea in 2009 saying that Miller had deliberately and fraudulently misled the court and defense counsel by withholding hundreds of pages of evidence.

Miller was later reprimanded by a Jackson County judge and sued the county for discrimination. The county paid him $70,000 to drop his lawsuits. The Judge of Ray's trial, Michael Sanders, was caught stealing campaign contributions between January, 2007 and December of 2015. Sanders was sentenced in 2018 to 27 months in prison, followed by three years of supervised release, and was ordered to pay $40,000 in forfeiture.

Now from a personal perspective, I know that corruption can and does happen in the justice system, but whether it influenced this particular case is up for debate. So here's what I'll tell you, Ray, like I have no doubt that the cops can like try to pin stuff on somebody whenever it's not true. But whenever you've killed two people, And, you know, they're, they're tying into these other ones and there's like, not just one more, but there's like four or five more.

You think that possibly since you've killed two people that Yeah, maybe one or two of these were you But not all of 'em. Cuz they may lied about some of'em, but not all of them. You know what I mean? You know I had a buddy, I ain't mention his name, they had charged like 16 murders, super serial killer.

They took him to court. They dropped eight of them charges and arrest. So I asked him, I said, what was the difference between the charges they convicted you on and wanted to let you go? He wasn't no difference in them. It's all exact same thing, so about that is why they drop any of 'em. They gonna got you anyway.

Why they even drop any of 'em One life sentence, the same thing as two. I wanna explain to you why I can actually partly believe you. Back in 2003, I was robbed and shot outside of New Orleans. I did not know who shot me in the chest and I almost died. I went to the police station. They showed me a lineup of six black men.

I looked at the lineup and I said, I don't remember who shot me. They pointed to the paper and they said, just pick one. I said, I can't do that. They pointed to the paper again. They said, just pick one. So I understand that a lot of times the police and all that will just push to get something done. But when you've killed two people and there's DNA involved in the rest of 'em, like I could believe that maybe not all of them were pinned to you.

But it's really hard for me to believe that like at least one or two more, like, you know what I mean? But I do understand you partly because my firsthand experience in watching cops just trying to pin something on a black guy. So I get it, I get it. But you have to understand that they're not trying to pin one more on you.

There's like four or five more. I mean, you can't say that. And at least one more was yours. Are you asking a question? Yeah, man. What I keep, I keep hearing you saying all these cases, but I don't even know what cases you talking about. I heard people. Suspect? What? What do they suspect? Well, that's exactly the wording is like when you look it up, it says, suspected of several more killings.

So it's like, man, that's, yeah. I mean, you've already killed two people and you admit to it, so when there's like three or four more that you're suspected of, I could believe that some of those may be fudged, but like probably some of these people was strangled in light manner that what they probably mean probably got strangled in a like manner.

That what I'm getting from there. Because if my DNA was anywhere near any of 'em, you know, Goodwill, they would have me on tv. You know that on one hand, Ray has a point. He has already been convicted of all three murders and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He has no money to fight any additional charges brought against him, and it would be easy for the justice system to pile on more accusations and convictions.

On the other hand, there is a clear pattern in the three murders he was convicted of. Although the other suspected cases are not public knowledge ray's admission to the two of the three murders makes it hard to ignore the evidence and not see him as a serial killer. The justice system isn't always fair, and Ray could very well be a victim of its flaws, but it's up to the listener to decide where they stand on this case.

One thing is for sure though Ray's fate of spending his last days behind bars is already sealed. He won't be walking outta prison a free man. I wondered if Ray felt like he had missed the opportunity to be out on parole due to the cold cases catching up with him, or perhaps whether he felt like he deserved worse the death penalty.

What do you think about the death penalty, Ray? This is what I think some people say they pro-life, you know what I mean? They say, I don't believe in abortion, this and that. Right? Most of the people say they pro life is not pro-life. They anti-abortion. Pro-life means from cradle to grave, so I'm category. I'm pro-life.

Even though I took a life at that time, I didn't know what I believe, but I know now I don't, I don't believe it's abortion and I don't believe it's capital murder. That's what pro-life really is. What if somebody is responsible for killing hundreds or even thousands of people? You think that we should spare their life?

They've been doing it, but I'm just saying I took something. Only God should be take. You know what I mean? Okay. I'm tell you right now, Putin, I'm use him for example. I think Putin's crap. I think he's got Satan in him, and I think if I had to raise my hands, put death, my hand wouldn't go up. I believe that Will is wrong, but I also believe that, and somehow, some way he'll redeem himself and really, really, really redeem himself.

I believe that Christ will accepting me to his home. Do you think you should be outta prison right now? This what I think. I think I'm at wherever God want me to be. I'm, I'm be honest with you I ain't trying to be funny. I would love to be out. I would love to be out, but I think I'm at where God exactly want me to be.

If God want me to pay for what I did and be for what I did to be in prison, as long as he allowed me to minister his word and help other people not to come back to prison and helped me to do the right thing, I'm okay with that. Once again, raise Faith is something that has been a common theme throughout this interview.

Given the finality of a situation, his strength of conviction is something that keeps him going behind bars. As we wrapped up our conversation, I had one final thought. Despite what Wikipedia or any other internet resource might say, I wanted to get Ray's final views on what had been done. What would history make of him?

Was he truly remorseful for what he had done and given the opportunity, what would he say to his victims in the afterlife? Ray, do you feel like you're a bad person? Yeah, I, I feel ain't nobody good, but God, I don't feel like. I feel that I ain't the person I was that committed them crimes, but am I a good person?

No, I, I can never give back what I took. Never. Okay. I don't know what take, but I just did. I just hurt somebody. I go back and apologize. I can never apologize. Nothing to these people are that family and do I feel bad I did it. Yeah. I really, believe it or not, I really do feel bad. I did it. If I had a chance to do it over again, I don't think it would've ever happened, you know?

Cause nobody deserves to get, somebody takes a life from them. Nobody deserves that. I got a serious question for you, Ray. If you died today, what would they say in your eulogy? They'll say, mention my name, mention my birth. They mentioned I was a drunk. They mention I was a Dope fiend. They mention I wasn't the father I should been, I didn't do the things I shoulda did.

And they mention I committed murders. Then I got convicted of three of them. They'll mentioned I went to prison and they mentioned the last 29, 30 years of his life, he turned life to God. He, to help people won't come back to prison. He ministered, he the next right thing he to encourage, he, he on the streets through the, and.

Sparing his life, although he even took a life and that's it. Like I said, I did what I did and God has, forgive me, I'm still doing time in prison. That's justice. I can't never give back. What I tell you, Toby, I can't never give back a life no matter how bad I want to right now. I can't give back a life. I can't.

If I r*** somebody, I can go back and say, I'm sorry if I robbed somebody, I'm sorry if I took somebody's life. Ain't nothing I can do to give that back. Let me ask you a question. You pass away, you go to heaven and you see two of your victims in heaven, what do you talk to 'em about? I'll be so glad to see 'em in heaven.

I'm sorry and I'm glad you in heaven, I'm so sorry and I'm glad you in heaven. I'm sorry you miss your family. I'm took away. I'm so glad you in heaven. I wouldn't be talking nothing sad. I'd be so happy that they in heaven. I wouldn't know what to do. I'd just be so excited; they in heaven.

And I'm sorry that I was the on that help bring 'em there.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer.

Callaway County Sheriff's investigators did not reveal a motive behind the double murders, allegedly committed by Dale Horton and Jennifer Grayson. Well, I just felt untouchable. I didn't care. I didn't care. What would make someone want another person killed in your case? That bitch r***d my daughter. The wheels of justice move slow.

Things will work themselves out. Be patient. Okay. What was her reaction to seeing him holding a gun? Her son. Is she still alive today? Luckily, yes. Was she saying anything to you? Like, don't kill me. He did say that day, whoever's there is gonna get it.

That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Ray for sharing his story with us today. His ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. A big shout out to Sonic Futures who handle the production, audio editing, music licensing, and promotion of this podcast.

If you want to hear more episodes like this one, make sure to visit our website at voicesofakiller.com. There you can find previous episodes, transcripts, and additional information about the podcast. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode. Please consider leaving us review on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future. Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.