Ep 34 | Matt Jennings Transcript

Ep 34 | Matt Jennings Transcript

Before we begin this podcast, please be advised that the following episode contains language that some listeners may find offensive and inappropriate. The opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not reflect the views of the podcast producers. Listener discretion is advised.

It's funny because it's just your voice, just the sound of your voice, you sound like somebody that's not a killer. Not every one of us in here are monsters. Light comes on. I'm standing probably five, six, seven feet from him and he's got a gun pointed at me. We're like, "Let's run". That was my thought. I took this man from his family. I took myself from my family.

I devastated a lot of lives out there. As much as I walked around trying to be a tough guy. In my mind, I was not a tough guy. I was afraid. I thought I was gonna die.

You are now listening to the podcast Voices of a Killer. I'm bringing you the stories from the perspective of the people that have taken the life of another human and their current situation thereafter in prison. You will see that although these are the folks that we have been programmed to hate, they all have something in common.

They are all humans like us that admit that they made a mistake. Will you forgive them or will you condemn them? They are currently serving time for their murders and they give us an inside glimpse of what took place when they killed and their feelings on the matter now. Here are the voices of those who have killed.

How would you react if somebody pulled a gun on you? Would you freeze up or fight to save your life? You can't truly know how you would react in a life or death situation until the day it actually happens to you. In today's episode, we're talking to a man who was faced with this split second decision.

In July 2008, Matthew Jennings stabbed and killed Jason Isenbletter in Springfield, Missouri. But as we peel back the layers of this case, we'll find that Matt is not the monster society might make him out to be. Instead, this is a story of a flawed individual who was put into a difficult situation in the heat of the moment, and made a terrible mistake.

What led to that defining moment? Why did Matt do what he did? And how does he now make peace with the past and find his own road to redemption? Sit back and listen closely for all this and more in this episode of Voices of a Killer.

So Matt, where'd you grow up? Grew up in Sacramento, California. California? How long did you stay there? I was there the first 33 years of my life, other than that I was in the military. Okay, so you're pretty much a Californian then. What branch of military did you go to? I was in the U. S. Army. Okay, before you went to the Army, how would you describe your life, your childhood, your family life and all that?

It was a broken home, but there was a lot of heavy alcohol use, some physical abuse as a kid. Both parents drinking? More so my dad. Yeah, was he a functioning alcoholic, working and everything? I don't know if I would say alcoholic from the stamp, he could quit anytime he'd want to. He was just a real heavy drinker.

Yeah. And this was in the 70s, and he grew up in a household to where he was abused severely. And he was a very young dad, you know. Did he talk about his, the abuse that he received to you? No, my grandmother told me later on in life. Wow. This was back in the fifties when he was a kid. Not that that's an excuse, but that's... Sure. Did you get abused by your parents?

My dad, he was real physical when it came to the discipline aspect of things and it was pretty bad at one point at a young age. Yeah. Are your parents still alive? Yeah. Both of them are. Yeah. Do you have a relationship with them? Yeah. Actually, my dad and I, despite all of the abuse I took as a kid, he and I have bonded very well afterwards.

Yeah. And I have empathy for what he went through when he was a 22 year old dad, not understanding what it was to be one. So, we've now, after... in prison, we've bonded pretty good. I'm very close with him. Did you ever get into drugs and alcohol as a juvenile? Yes, I started drinking at a young age. I started drinking. I would sneak in beers when I was 6, 7, 8 years old.

How did you do in school? I was actually a pretty good student for most of it. As I got into high school, I decided that... I played football, baseball in high school. It was very important to me, but off season I was doing a lot of heavy drinking and alcohol and marijuana use, acid, LSD, things like that.

Sure. Did you ever get in trouble with the law back as a kid? No, not as a kid. I was actually an introvert because... what I've learned as I've gotten older, going through some of the programs here in prison, that I had a lot of character defects that stemmed off of some abandonment issues I had as a kid, the abuse and all of that.

I became an introvert. I really just stayed to myself a lot. So, what prompted you to go to the Army? It was something my stepfather, who was raising me, was a big influence, and he was a special forces in Vietnam, he was an ex-Army guy, and... I was already at 17 years old, just didn't know what I wanted to do, and I was starting to get a little out of hand with some of my attitudes and behaviors, so I felt that the Army would be a good experience.

I was just young. And how was that experience? It was great. I went through airborne school, air assault school, you know, I was stationed at Skull Foot Barracks, Hawaii, 25th Line Infantry Division. And I, unfortunately, it allowed me to hone my drinking skills. I say hone somewhat sarcastically. It really... It... My alcoholism started to take off at that point. Did you ever go to war or anything? I was actually at orders cut to go to Kuwait during Desert Shield, Desert Storm back in 1991. Yeah. And they did the ceasefire. So what...? They changed my orders. Yeah. What year would this have been going into the military?

I signed up in '90 and I got out in '93. And how old are you now? I'll be 51 in November. If I were to ask somebody that knew you, about the time that you maybe got out of the Army. If I were to ask somebody, what kind of guy is Matt, what would they say? From the outside, they would have said, cause I was in great shape and in the prime of my life in my mind, they would have said I was super confident, cocky, arrogant. Truth of the matter is, Toby, on the inside, I was insecure and had all kinds of issues, man. But they would have perceived me as cocky cause I was fighting a lot and I was... Not that I was a good fighter. I was just stubborn. What about violence? I experienced a lot as a kid. I got into my share of fights growing up. Violence, because of all the fear that I actually had in my life, I thought about violence in situations where I couldn't cope with the situation.

I thought violence would be an answer. Did you ever get like in run-ins where you get in fights or stab anybody or something throughout your life? Besides what I'm here for, I've never stabbed anybody, but I have gotten situations where, when a guy was down, I was putting the boot to his head and stomping him out.

And going excessive. I tend to have, I've got an excessive personality and that's the way that I felt I had to deal with things. If you'd come across Matt in the 90s, you'd probably see a normal guy in his 20s, young, cocky, and in the prime of his life, but that's only half the story. Beneath a tough exterior, Matt was battling his own inner demons.

A pattern of violence seemed to run through the Jennings family tree. Matt came from a broken home in California with a dad who drank heavily. Matt's father was abused as a child and disciplined his own kids harshly. Perhaps as a product of this, Matt grew up to be a violent man with a fiery temper, the kind of guy to act first and think later.

At 18, young and testy, Matt enlisted in the Army. It was his stepdad who urged him to go, hoping the military would do the young man some good, or at least keep him out of trouble for a few years. And though the Army did give Matt structure and routine, it also left him with an active addiction. It can be difficult for anyone to integrate back into the outside world after military service.

Many are left with a void in their life that can only be filled with substance abuse. That proved true for Matt when, three years later, he came out of the military as an alcoholic, with a quick temper to match. In the years that followed, Matt was a tinderbox waiting to snap. That moment came in July, 2008.

You told me that you pled not guilty to this? Yes, I did plead not guilty, initially yes. And do you still claim innocence? Oh no, the reason I pled not guilty was to the second degree murder. The way that everything played out, I felt it should have been manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, the way that the incident rolled out.

But, Toby, truthfully, I'm guilty of taking a man's life. Yeah, I've changed my perspective on that. Let me ask you, who's...? The victim in your case, what's your relation with this person? I knew him a little bit through, I have a co-defendant, and I knew him a little bit through him. We bought marijuana from him on the street.

This was in Springfield. And, I'm talking a little bit, $20, $30 purchases at a time. And, because I was deep into my alcoholism and my, and my drug use at that time. What other drugs were you doing? Mainly just marijuana. Okay, so you knew this guy through purchasing a little bit of pot every once in a while?

Yeah, probably a couple times a week I purchased it from him. And did the co-defendant know the victim? Oh yeah, they were friends, yeah. They used to spend the night over there with him sometimes. The victim in the case, he was single, lived by himself. Any kind of negative views between you and him?

Nothing too... the guy was a little bit hard to deal with. He had one of those personalities that he was real abrasive, but nothing that should have prompted what had happened. Yeah. And so tell me, and I'd like to just go step-by-step, tell me about that day. What happened? I was drinking and we were going over, me and my co-defendant were, he was living with me at the time.

It's a long story, but basically he needed a spot and I had an extra bedroom. So I let him live there for a little bit. And we went over there late at night. It was his friend, it was my co-defendant's friend. And he said that he didn't mind us swinging through late. So we basically were inebriated. I went over there to buy some marijuana and that's when everything kicked off.

You and your co-defendant, who was like your roommate for the time being, went to the victim's house to buy pot. So whenever y'all went over there, I'm guessing you knocked on the door, he answers, y'all both go in, and whenever y'all sit down on the couch and start talking about what you're going to purchase?

No, not to go into a great amount of detail because I don't know how much time you have, but I'll just give you the summary of it. It was dark. It was middle of the night. It was early morning, actually. There was no porch light on, nothing like that. The door opened, it was dark. He sounded a little frustrated with us and told us, "Come on in."

Light comes on. I'm standing probably five, six, seven feet from him and he's got a gun pointed at me. And he's yelling at me. The victim? The victim, yeah. This is why I thought it should have been manslaughter because he pointed a gun which prompted my actions, but I'm not making excuses for my actions in any way.

No, I get it. I mean, but facts are facts. So he pointed the gun at you. What's your reaction? Straight fear, man. Cause Toby, as much as I walked around trying to be a tough guy in my mind, I was not a tough guy. I was afraid. I thought I was going to die, and a guy had some knives laying. It sounds a little crazy he had knives laying on his table, but he did, he had probably 6 or 7, and it was even in trial, he had a family member testify that he often kept knives on his table. He had this end of the world mindset, where he kept food palletized in his basement, things of that nature.

So how long did he hold the gun to you, and how far were you from him, and then also, Did he say anything while pointing the gun at you? Well, my memory tells me, and keep in mind I was buzzed, it was in my cups a little, so the exact time frame, I'll do my best. Basically, the gun comes up. I'm probably about five feet from him or so.

It wasn't very long because we just started yelling. My co-defendant was behind him off to the side and was yelling at him to put the gun down. And I had my hands up and I was petrified. And I was yelling, "Put the gun down. Put the gun down." And so he, at one point he turned away to look over my co-defendant.

I just instinctually picked up one of those knives off the table. I lunged at him. And put my arm up to block his gun arm, which was his right arm, and started stabbing him. Jesus Christ. Was it overhanded, or was it jabbed underhanded? It was, I'll just break it down, he was looking away, he was looking the other direction, and I just reacted, man.

It wasn't even hardly any time to think. I grabbed down, it was just a little pull out, one of those little three inch buck knives, or whatever you want to call them. It was a little knife, and I pulled it and in one motion, I unsheathed it or pulled it out. I threw my left arm up to block his right arm, which had the gun in it.

And I just came overhand, more almost like a punch, but with the knife in my hand, if that makes any sense. And I hit him in the upper, his upper left chest, pectoral region. And whenever that first jab went into him, was he still looking away from you or did by that time, did he start looking at you whenever you came for him?

He was, but I had his hand up. I had my left hand up to where the gun wasn't pointing at me. And I don't think he had a good grip on the handle because I don't think he could actually pull the trigger at that point. I don't know. It was just so fast. Okay. So first, the first jab goes into that spot. You said he's left his chest or whatever.

You pull it out. Do you go for the second jab? I do, I'm just, it's like I'm punching him. Okay, so you're... But with the, it's a little blade, so it's, the blade's not going, the biggest wound according to autopsy was an inch in width. It was just little, it was just pokes. The autopsy said it was around 20 something stabs, somewhere in that range, just right there.

Yeah, so you're jabbing him good. Is he taking steps back as you're jabbing him, or is he fighting back? There's a couch right behind his legs so I'm actually angling him into the couch and the reason I stopped is he dropped the gun and it landed on the couch next to him and he falls back into the couch and - Is he saying anything like, "Stop man, stop" or anything like that?

I don't, I, there was just a lot of yelling, I don't know. And how about your co-defendant, is he, what's he doing? He's yelling something, I can't tell in the moment, I'm just, it's shock, man. In the moment, I've never done anything like this, so I'm... Sure, sure. I'm just, I'm freaked out, man. How many times did you stab him?

The autopsy said 20 or 21, something like that. Man, that is a lot of f***ing stabbing right there, dude. That's a lot of times. It is. It was a lot of just, it was punch, stabs, punch, whatever you want to call them. Yeah. It was pure fear, man. Pure fear.

And that's another thing that probably hurts you is the violence involved. It's hard for people to wrap their head around why did he do it so many times? But like I said, if the story went exactly like you're saying, then it's pretty justified when a gun pulled on you. I've been shot before, so I probably wouldn't curl up into a ball if somebody pointed a gun at me.

I'd just melt and die right there. It's very difficult. It's fight or flight. If it happens again, I might run. I pray to God that it would never happen again. Life is made up of split second decisions made in the heat of the moment. One wrong move, one lapse of judgment can change a life forever. That's exactly what happened to Matt when he knocked on Jason's door with his co-defendant to buy some weed.

It was very late, the hallway dark, when they entered Jason's apartment, but when the lights flickered on, Matt found himself facing down the barrel of a gun. Fear surged through him. Now the stakes were high, his life was at risk. His fight or flight instinct was triggered by the sight of that gun, and Matt panicked.

When Jason looked away, Matt seized his chance. Pulling his knife from the table, he stabbed at Jason's chest in short, repeated bursts until the gun dropped out of Jason's hand and he fell back onto the couch. What was meant to be a casual trip to buy some weed had gone horribly wrong. But had the story ended there, I might not be having this conversation with Matt right now.

Despite his stab wounds, Jason was still alive. If Matt had stopped and called the police, things might have played out very differently. So, once he drops the gun, that's when you stop stabbing him? Yeah, here's how it went down. He dropped the gun, and I'm, I just, I remember looking down at my hands, this is one of the, just, it's just, it's spotty.

I remember looking down at my hands and seeing blood, and it freaked me out. I've been to this house a few times, right around the corner from where this had happened, in this hallway, there's a bathroom. I go right into the bathroom, my first thought was get the blood off my hands. And what's he doing? Not very -

Is he, like, laying there suffering, or is he, like, out of it, like, dead? I... He's laying there, and he's not, there's no, nothing coming out of him other than some groaning, and so I don't know what he is. Yeah, so you go in the bathroom. What happens when you go in the bathroom? Alright, well, I'm in there, and I'm just washing..

I remember clearly, very clearly at this point, looking in the mirror and mouthing, "What the F happened?" What's your co-defendant doing? This is the second part of this. There's more to it. I hear him at one point. He's, my co-defendant's a little fella. I'm about, at the time, I'm probably close to 300 pounds.

Plus fat. I had some muscle too, plus fat. 5'11 range. And he's, my co-defendant's probably about, I don't know, 140 pounds, maybe? And the victim's probably about 190. And all I hear is my co-defendant yelling for me to help him. And I'm thinking, what the hell? You know, everything's nuts already. So I run out there and all I know is, I left the room and there was a bunch of knives on that table.

I go in there, the coffee table's turned over, and the victim is on top of my co-defendant. He jumped on your co-defendant? Yeah, apparently, and then I don't know the full extent of what happened in there, but, because my, I'd asked my public defender to bring my co-defendant in to testify for me, and my public defender refused to even interview him, which was one of my points on appeal and it went nowhere, of course. The appellate system is a difficult system. Yeah. But, from what I understand, from what I gather from, we had my co-defendant sign an affidavit explaining a little bit what happened. Jason got back up after I left and tackled him to the ground and they knocked, that's why the coffee table was knocked over apparently.

And whatever I did clearly didn't do enough to stop him so he's on top of him and there's a struggle. And I don't know if, the guy's name is Jason, the victim, I don't know if he's, what he's doing. We're all ex military, I don't know what he's doing. And so I'm yelling. First thing I'm doing is yelling, "Get off Jason, get off of him". He won't get off of him, and my co-defendant's screaming, so I jump down on him.

And I put my hand around the victim's neck to try to pull him off. At this point, I'm not stabbing him anymore, nothing like that, but I still have the knife in my hand. And I'm trying to pull him off, he's not coming off. And as I pull him up, my co-defendant's coming up with him. For all I know, he's stabbing him. I, at this point, I just start stabbing Jason again in the back.

I get him like... So you're telling me that you went in the bathroom, then came back out and had to start stabbing him again? In the back, yes. Got him again. I ended up getting him another 19 times or so, so it's a total of 40 stab wounds. And like I said, the biggest was an inch. It looks horrible. Yeah, that also is what f***ed you right there.

Not leaving the house and staying there. That right there sealed the deal, brother. Oh yeah. Toby, I'm gonna be honest with you, man. I deserve to be in prison for this. I'm guilty of taking a man's life. Now, granted, there was a gun pulled on me. Granted, I felt that was a provocation to some extent. I felt like it was manslaughter.

So Matt - However, I took this man from his family. No, I understand. I felt horrible about it. I understand. I hear the remorse. You're not trying to deny anything, which I like that because now I feel like I can really get honest answers from you. And one of the things I want to know is did he really, like, when you open the door, what would prompt this man to pull a gun on you?

There has to be a reason. Well, I've got, I've got some information that might help cause I don't completely understand it either. However, the, this guy's wife, I think they were separated at the time, testified in my trial. And what she testified was that she's seen him on multiple occasions pull guns on people in his house.

We got his medical records from the VA. I hate to throw all this stuff out there because I'm not trying to trash the victim, man. Sure, sure. But you're asking questions, I'm trying to let you know... Yeah, no, I get It. ...some of the information I know, because I don't want to trash him in any way. It seems like you're cognizant of that. I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't want to be disrespectful. Here's the thing, if you were trying to deny everything, and then you made up, he pulled the gun on me, but you're not really denying anything, but you're including something that sounds like a little bit out there. So it's like, why do people, you just go over there and buy pot, it's just weed man, like you're, who pulls guns on people? That's serious stuff to point a gun at someone. So why would this guy do this?

I sat in county, Greene County for months, and trying to figure this out myself. We got his VA medical records, and come to find out, I don't know if he got kicked out of the military, but he was seeing the VA medical, and he had some disorder. It was some... it wasn't PTSD, but it was some type of anxiety disorder that prompted violent mood swings.

His ex-wife testified that he often answered his door and pulled guns on people he knew. And there's a repeated pattern of this behavior. We can't know for sure why Jason pulled the gun on Matt that night. That's something that only Jason himself could answer. But the medical records that Matt subpoenaed do give us some clues.

An ex-military man, Jason was being treated for a mental health disorder linked to volatile mood swings. Was Jason having some kind of episode when he opened the door on his friends that night? Regardless, it was Matt who escalated the situation. Things took a turn for the worse when Matt returned to the room to find Jason in a struggle with his co-defendant.

The coffee table was knocked over and his co-defendant was yelling out for help. He tried to tear Jason from his friend. Matt stabbed him repeatedly in the back, leaving more than 40 stab wounds. Much later, when facing trial, Matt would argue that he should be tried for manslaughter, not murder. But he made a critical mistake on the day of the murder that would weaken his case.

Stabbing Jason over 40 times was an excessive level of force. That kind of violence could suggest that Matt's intent wasn't just self-preservation. What's more, Matt had an opportunity to de escalate the conflict when he fled to the bathroom. At this point, the threat had subsided, and he had a chance to exit the scene and seek help.

But his choice to resume the attack would count against him in court. After the second round of stabbing, Matt also made a third, even more damning mistake. Now, we're like, "Let's run." That was my thought. Matt and his co-defendant went on the run. More on that after the break.

So let me ask you this. Did they find the body with the gun there? Did y'all take the gun or did they not find a gun? Here's where one of many areas where I made a mistake, Toby, out of fear. Okay. Bad decision is I ran. Yeah. I didn't call the cops. I ran. And that's what, and here's the thing there's, I don't think there's anything written in the law that states if you run, but for whenever you do leave a murder,

prosecutors don't like that s***, man. They make you the bad guy automatically. So we, my co-defendant, here's how it went down. One, that second time, when I let go of him, and I'm, at this point, I'm gone. I bounce out, I take off, and my co-defendant's there, and without a vehicle. And so I drive back to my, our townhouse, our apartment.

He ends up taking Jason's truck and meets me there. At that point.... yeah. At that point I told him, I don't know what we're like, "Let's run." That, that was my thought. Let's run. I don't know what to do. I've never been in trouble. Like I told you, Toby, I did everything horrible. I can understand why the prosecution was going to look and say, "Hey, that's a sign of guilt."

Yeah. I get it. The truth is the truth though. Why the hell did he take the vehicle, man? It looks like a big robbery or some s***. But everything was re- the vehicle was returned because we ended up turning ourselves in. I'm skipping ahead a little, but we ended up driving. We left state. We ended up finally turning ourselves in in Oklahoma.

So y'all did get...? At a rest area. Y'all did meet back together and y'all said, hey, let's run? Oh yeah, let's run. We were running at that point. I was, I thought, hey man, it's, I'm gonna die. Whose vehicle did you take to run? We ended up taking his because my, I had a Mustang at the time, and this all came out in my trial too, but my Mustang wasn't running right.

We didn't have a vehicle that we could run with that I was having problems with it running. Yeah, y'all made tons of mistakes. Tons of mistakes. I've never been in trouble. I've never been, I've always been that guy that, I was at the time working as an enrollment counselor at University of Phoenix in Springfield.

Before that I was a mortgage banker. I've always led a squeaky clean life, but Toby, I was a mess inside. I was, I had all these defects. I had this alcoholism I was battling. I was not making good decisions and it carried over into this. How far did y'all get? We ended up going all the way down to Texas and then I've got children.

And I told my co-defendant that I don't want to do this anymore, man. I said, "Let's, let's turn ourselves in." I'd rather see my kids than be dead. Because at this point, I was thinking the cops are going to shoot us or something. Did y'all drive all the way back or did you just walk into a police station in Texas? We ran out of gas and so we coasted into a rest area right inside of Oklahoma.

And there's a little state trooper driving, flying by, so I flagged him down. And as I flagged him down, he goes and he, I'm almost laughing because he tried to... I'll explain it. I flagged him down. I said, "Hey, we're wanted by Missouri." And he goes over and runs our tags, and apparently there's already an APB out on the truck being stolen because this was like six days later.

And so he suddenly pulls a gun on us once he realizes this is the homicide victim's truck and jumps on me. And I'm cooperating. I waved him down and I'm trying to tell him, I said, "Look, I waved you down." And he said, "Say one more word, I'll blow your brains out" and he's on top of my back and I got a gun to my head and I'm sitting there thinking, well, I'm going to be quiet now.

I'm going to not provoke him any further.

After that cop cuffs you guys up, he takes y'all into the station there in Oklahoma? Processes y'all and y'all have to be extradited? How long did you stay in Oklahoma? It was about three weeks and they kept me in a drunk tank. It was a little tiny, Love County. It was a tiny little local... Pretty miserable? Tiny county. Oh, it was miserable, man.

And they treated me like, they had me on the news and treated me like Hannibal Lector. And I understand it. The co-defendant was in there with you? Yeah, he was in a different cell. They had us both at separate, like, drunk tanks. They transferred y'all both back to Greene County? Yeah, the interstate, the little van...

And that was the most miserable time I've ever done in my life was riding in those vans. Sure, sure. Five days after stabbing Jason Isenbletter, Matt had turned himself in. But at first, he and his co-defendant had actually gone on the run, fleeing Missouri. Taking Jason's Nissan Xterra, they fled across the country to Galveston on the coast of Texas.

Only a few days later, however, the guilt wore down on Matt's conscience and he realized that this wasn't something that he could run from forever. So, along with his co-defendant, they had headed back to Springfield. On the way, they ran out of gas, pulled into a rest stop in Thackerville, Oklahoma, and waited.

Meanwhile, back in Springfield, a manhunt for Matt and his co-defendant had begun. Police had been tipped off about the murder by a cousin of Matt's co-defendant. The cousin told police that the co-defendant had confessed to a murder over a phone call to his grandmother. Police searched Matt's Ford Mustang outside his apartment and found three knives, one of them bloody.

But they didn't have to wait long for Matt and his co-defendant to be caught. At the time, a state trooper on Interstate 35 idled into the rest stop where they were waiting. Hands raised, they surrendered, and Matt was locked up in a drunk tank. Now it was time for him to reckon with the consequences of what he'd done.

And so you actually, you got a plea deal from the prosecutors? Oh no, they offered 30 years. For what? And for murder, secondary murder. What, did you plead guilty, not guilty? No, I took it to trial. So you took it to trial? I took it to trial. My public defender said, based off all of the evidence and the discovery, he said it should have been voluntary manslaughter, not secondary murder.

And so he thought that we would have a chance to take it to trial for voluntary manslaughter, so. And they were trying to charge you with second degree, is that what they were going for? They charged me with second degree. They actually, my public defender claims that they would have gone to first degree if they could just find the right evidence to support it.

In other words, they weren't really looking for what the evidence supported as much as what can we get away with the evidence the way it seemed, based on how he explained it. Did you have a jury trial or bench trial? Jury trial. What was that like watching your peers basically? Did they look at you, what was it like?

Oh, I could tell from the first day that I was in trouble with the verdict because, and listen, I understand it, the amount of evidence my public defender brought into this thing, the fact that he wouldn't even call my co-defendant to testify for me, which was the only witness, I had no witness. I had me telling them what happened.

And I would bet that this is one of those cases where, you know, depending on who you are and what kind of attorney you can get will determine the outcome. This is, this is like Your history and the circumstances, it's not like you were robbing somebody. You don't have a history of doing this stuff. But I think if you would have had a good attorney and maybe you weren't, I don't know, something was different, then you probably could have got off.

I don't know. But you did a lot.... you also did a lot of things wrong, like going back and stabbing. Instead of running out of the house and calling the police, you went back, stabbed, but then again, your friend was getting beat up, so it's, I don't know. It's, but the laws are written so they can f***ing put people away. And I didn't leave the house.

I just went right around the corner when I came back was, but I left the room. No, I get it. So you're found guilty, but you felt like the jury was looking at you like, like you were a guilty guy from the onset? Oh, yeah. I absolutely, I definitely felt I was already convicted in their eyes just by the looks. They wouldn't make eye contact with me.

And I don't know if you know this, but the procedure to picking the jury, the prosecutors have the ability to say yes, no, yes, no, yes, and pick which ones they want. They're going to go in there and find people that maybe look a little bit more rigid. I got something for you on that, Toby. Yeah, go ahead.

Something that might be of interest. My group of peers, I was 37 during this trial. And I want to say, this isn't, may not be exact, but very close. Out of the 12 people in my jury, I want to say eight of them were women over the age of 50, something like that. And I'm not saying, look, what I did, I deserve to be in prison over.

I firmly believe that, but I'm just saying it was hard to... The thing is, is the jury has to follow a set of guidelines and find someone guilty or not guilty based on the way the laws are written, but we all know that humans are humans and there's a reason why they are very careful on who they pick to make those decisions and things like that. It's a very wicked, complex system out there that we have to go through when somebody's been accused of something, and then whenever it's something that's just questionable and iffy and is it this or that, which your circumstances is that. I can tell by talking to you, you're not some kind of f***ing crazy person out there in a gangbang, and trust me, I've talked to a lot of them.

So who is your judge? Judge Holden. And Holden's usually pretty lenient, from what I understand. Holden... He was real lenient with me on one aspect. Yeah, and he's probably real respectful too. Holden's known for being lenient on sex offenders and all kinds of s***. What did he sentence you to? I got, the jury sentenced me, not him.

I'd asked my public defender to waive jury sentencing, so Judge Holden would sentence me. He forgot to. And he had to do it at a certain stage, and so that was one of my points on appeal. But Judge Holden, what he did for me was, the jury sentenced me to life, parolable life, with 50 years for the ACA, because the prosecutor said give him a year for every stab wound, and the prosecutor prompted, and I didn't stab him 50, but they rounded it apparently.

Judge Holden ran those sentences concurrent, as opposed to... Concurrent, okay. So in actuality, what you have when it's all said and done is you have life with parole. What was your reaction when he said guilty? I wasn't surprised at that by then. My reaction was my children are without a father for the rest of their life is what it felt like to me.

I just felt like I've devastated a lot of people at that point. At that point, I was already coming around, coming to grips. And I know this isn't a popular topic, but I've got a relationship with God now. And I didn't before. I was very anti-God before all of this. And now I'm at a point where I understand that I've caused a lot of pain in a lot of lives out there.

Part of the reason I wanted to sit and talk to you about this was just to explain that aspect of it. I've been told that people open it up and it helps to be able to... asking questions and wanting to know the details is... it's good for you on that side to be able to say, "Hey, this is all what happened." Yeah. I'd like to maybe humanize us in here a little bit.

Not every one of us in here are monsters. It does that too, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to start this, because I actually learned that the news does a terrible job at trying to make people think that whenever something like this happens that it has to be one way and that's evil and there's this person was terrible and this happened, but man, these people are people in a family who served our country and they were just in an awkward situation and made some little bad decisions in a very pressured situation.

That's a good way to put it. That, I believe, describes me, the way I see it. And believe it or not, some of the people that have done way worse things, at the end of the day, they're very human too, you know, and I haven't talked to anybody yet that's said, yeah, that does motherf***er deserved to die. And I know they're out there.

I've almost interviewed some like that. They didn't want to be interviewed, but I've had most of people are either regretful or, of course, I have the ones that deny it and that's fine too. But most people are more normal than the news tries to portray. Absolutely. At the end of Matt's trial, the 12 man jury stood in the Greene County courtroom and read out their verdict.

Officially, Matt was found guilty of second degree murder for killing Jason Isenbletter. A few things frustrated Matt about the course of his trial. From the start, Matt argues, the evidence better supported a charge of voluntary manslaughter, not second degree murder. There is a slight difference in the legal definitions here.

Voluntary manslaughter is a heat of the passion crime in which a defendant kills out of intense fear or a sudden provocation. It's a less severe charge and usually carries a lighter sentence, but though Matt firmly believed his case met this definition, he says he wasn't given a fair chance to prove it.

Matt was the only witness called to testify on his behalf, so all the jury had to go on was his word, and from day one, Matt felt that the jury was against him. Jury selection is something prosecutors can manipulate to their advantage. Although members of the jury are chosen at random, they are screened and dismissed for conflicts of interest.

An attorney can use this process to tailor the jury to favor their client. In Matt's case, the jury was mostly composed of plus 50 women who Matt thought were predisposed against him from the start. When the prosecutors told the jury to give Matt quote unquote, "50 years for every stab wound on the victim", the jury did just that. Matt was sentenced to life with parole and 50 years for armed criminal action. After that guilty verdict, reality hit Matt hard. By his own hand, he'd robbed a man of his life and his future, and now Matt would lose his own future with his family. That can be a hard pill for anyone to swallow.

Since that day, however, Matt has taken accountability for his actions. Instead of being defined by an error he made in the heat of the moment, he has used his mistake as a catalyst to change his life for the better, Something that he can present to the parole board in the near future. And Missouri is 30 years for life, correct?

Yes. In about another, little over a decade you will get to sit down with parole board, correct? Yes, that is correct. And the parole board's gonna, they're gonna ask you about some stuff. Who are you? Are you sorry for what you did? And I think you're gonna do well on all those aspects, but how would you feel if they sat out and you said, you know what?

We look at this crime, it was really bad, and we're not ready to let you out. I almost expect something like that, Toby, with the parole board, but here's where I'm at, and I mentioned a little bit of this earlier, I've got a relationship with God now that I never had, and this might sound a little hokey or cheesy, but it's the truth.

Whatever happens, I believe it's His will, and I deserve, I took a man's life, I took this man from his family. I took myself from my family. I devastated a lot of lives out there. If they decide that I'm not supposed to be out there, I look at it as God being in control of that. And I know that sounds maybe unbelievable to a non-believer.

I'm not saying, not talking about you, but a non-believer listening. But that's where my heart is. And I give all of that to God, man. And so whatever happens, I have a peace with that situation because of God. And whatever happens, man. So what's your 16 years been like? I've stayed completely out of trouble.

I've learned a lot. I've gotten myself into pretty good shape physically. I was, like I said, 300 pounds. I've dedicated a lot of time to physical fitness, to spirituality. Stayed out of trouble completely. I'm now in the P4P program here at Jeff City. I'm a narrator for the, they call it the Handicap Center here, it's the CBNP, it's the Center for Braille and Narration Production. It's probably why I'm so hoarse right now, but I narrate. I narrate books for blind people.

Oh, that's cool. It's my job here. It's a great, best job in prison, man. So do you ever find yourself getting in physical altercations? No, nope, not at all. I've gone my whole bit without it, man. I've had a peaceful existence. Now, don't get me wrong, I've had moments to where, you're tested, and I just, I stand up to the test, but I've not had a situation where I've had to actually... Have you exhausted all your appeals?

Yeah, oh yeah, I went through it all. I went through years and years of it, and I'm at a point now where it's like, whether I think it was vol man or whether it's murder, there's a man that's family doesn't get to have him in their life anymore, so there's a body. It shouldn't have happened, and I'm the culprit.

Do you ever get the victim's family or loved ones reach out to you, hate mail or anything? I've thought about going through the RJO, Restorative Justice, and maybe trying to write a letter to them, but I think about it like this, Toby, these people are so angry with me, and understandably. If I got a letter from somebody that said I'm sorry, I don't, for taking my family member, I don't know how genuine they would find it to be, and I don't know if it would help them.

I don't think it does, man. I, honestly, I think if they reached out to you, they want to see, because they have, I actually have been talking to people where the victims reach out to them, and they have a relationship with them. I would love to. Yeah, and I think it's good for the perpetrator, I guess I could put it that way, or the guy that did the crime.

Yeah. Because you feel like you're like, somebody's saying it's, I accept your apology in a way, but obviously it's rare. But I actually have spoken to one of the guys. He said that he's in touch with the victim's daughter, I believe it is. And, but yeah, have you ever gotten, were they in the courtroom? Were they mad at you?

Oh yeah, his dad threatened to kill me and all this other stuff. And I just sat there because I'm a dad. Yeah, I would be probably doing the same thing in his shoes so I can understand it. I try to use empathy, seeing something from somebody else's view. I get it. I understand it. Yeah. The, the biggest, the biggest victims are the loved ones.

You know what I mean? Oh man. I know it. It's that ripple effect that they talk about, man, and it's so true. But I know what I did and I wish to God it never happened. And if they ever reached out, I would do anything for these people. Well... I'm not going to reach out to them because I think that's disingenuous.

How about this, if they were listening to this, what would you like to tell them? If they were listening to this, I would like to tell them how incredibly sorry I am. I just, I feel horrible about the whole situation. I realize how much damage I've caused them. And I can't take it back, but if there's anything I can do for them, reach out to me, I'll do it for you.

I just... I would love to take the pain away, but there's nothing, I can't do that. Do you anticipate them being at your parole hearing or trying to write letters keeping you in there? I would imagine so, yeah. I would imagine so. And like I told you earlier, and I mean it, I'm at a point now where, whatever happens, God's will is in my life.

And if the parole board asks me, do I deserve to be out? I'm probably going to tell them no. Because there's another man's life out there. Now do I really...? In my heart, of course I want out. Of course I want to be out there. I know I can be a good, productive guy these days, but how can you tell a parole board and the family of these people that lost a life that I deserve to be out there living while their kids, their child, their person, their brother, their sister, or whoever the person is, is no longer living?

I can't, it doesn't make sense to me, so that's a tough question. Yeah. Matt, I've... your situation... It's funny because it's just your voice, just the sound of your voice, you sound like somebody that's not a killer. I'm going to be completely honest. It's weird, that sound. It's like just talking to you, you're not, that's not who you are.

You know what I mean? That's God working in my life, Toby. I'm telling you, man, He's given me a peace. And I know that, I don't know where you're at with God, but that's, it's a real thing in my life, man. Well, I appreciate you opening up to me. But also, just to say, I want to humanize us, man. I want these people out there to understand that we're not all, that God's working in my life as well.

That's an important aspect of my life. Dude, if you'd have known me, Toby, before. I'm not the same guy, man. Yeah. The same person. Like I said before, I wish you the best of luck. All right, man. Yeah. All right, Toby. Thanks, man. I appreciate you, man, and looking forward to having my family listen to this and... Okay. I hope that maybe it can help somebody, who knows?

Yep. All right, man. Take it easy. Okay? Alright, man. You too. See you. Bye-Bye.

On the next episode of Voices of a Killer.

I was never a violent criminal. I never did violent crime, right? So we went back out. I went to turn to leave again, and he closed his door on me. What was your reaction when he caught the hammer? And I'm looking, I was like, man, he tripping. So he was still after you with all those bullets in him? Yes, yes.

They was still fighting. Dude was extremely high, right? According to his blood work, he was like high high, like through the roof high, Right? I had made some statements. I was coerced by some police officers who took me to trial on two murders for one body.

That's a wrap on this episode of Voices of a Killer. I want to thank Matt for sharing his story with us today is ability to be open and honest is what makes this podcast so special. If you would like to listen to the raw recordings of these interviews, you can visit https://www.patreon.com/VoicesofaKiller.

By becoming a patron, you can access not only this, but hours of bonus recordings, correspondence, and you can contribute to the way the show is produced. A big shout out to Sonic Futures who handle the production, audio editing, music, licensing, and promotion of this podcast. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, make sure to visit our website at https://www.voicesofakiller.com/. There you can find previous episodes, transcripts, and additional information about the podcast. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback helps us improve and reach new listeners. Thank you for your support, and we can't wait to share more stories with you in the future.

Thank you for tuning in. I'm your host, Toby, and we'll see you next time on Voices of a Killer.